Al Roquer investigates Horrors of Hazing

[Glitter650]

Did anyone else watch this show ?? At first I thought it was being actually an ok show, showing that sports groups haze, noting that a lot of the incidents they were reporting happened in groups that weren't even recognized by their campus AT ALL, then they bring on none other than ALEXANDRA ROBBINS saying "pleding needs to be eliminated all together" and saying the only way to stop hazing is to Get rid of greeks, and saying more school should consider a ban on greek life.

[DeltAlum]

So, to be the Devil's advocate, what they should have done is point out the things you've mentioned above -- which is good -- and ignore perhaps the most visible anti-Greek/hazing spokespersons in the country?

Wouldn't that be just the opposite of what everyone always accuses Journalism of? Only showing one side of the issue?

[hoosier]

I don't think Al clearly identified Norman Pollard, who talked repeatedly. He's part of the Alfred U hazing study of athletics, which was very flawed. For example, an athlete was considered 'hazed' if he had to report to campus earlier than other students.

If the seven rookies, and the 14 upperclassmen on the soccer team, reported to campus and started practice two weeks before classes start, all 21 kickers were 'hazed' by Pollard's and Alfred's study. If you consider that soccer, football, cheerleaders, band, and other sports all start practice early, it makes your hazing numbers distorted.

All of Alfred's studies are suspect, in my opinion.

Pollard was part of a web chat in 2000 - here's the url:

-----------------------------------------
http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcr...0/9/1/pollard/

September 1, 2000
Posted at: 1:05 p.m. EDT

(CNN) – Hazing -- dangerous or humiliating group initiation rites -- was once thought to be limited to college campuses and the military. However, in a study released August 28 by Alfred University, hazing is widespread among high school students seeking acceptance in various school-related and extracurricular groups.

Dr. Norman Pollard, director of the Counseling and Student Development Center at Alfred University since 1992, is co-investigator on "Initiation Rites in American High Schools." Dr. Pollard was a member of the advisory committee for Alfred University's 1999 study of hazing by member NCAA intercollegiate athletic teams. He has been a frequent speaker on hazing to various professional organizations and has presented several workshops on hazing prevention at colleges and universities.

[33girl]

Alexandra Robbins is not an anti-hazing spokesperson. She's a pro-Alexandra Robbins spokesperson.

If you have to go with visible anti-hazing people, Hank Nuwer or Eileen Stevens would trump Robbins...although their boobs aren't as perky.

[Glitter650]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
So, to be the Devil's advocate, what they should have done is point out the things you've mentioned above -- which is good -- and ignore perhaps the most visible anti-Greek/hazing spokespersons in the country?

Wouldn't that be just the opposite of what everyone always accuses Journalism of? Only showing one side of the issue?

To be completely balanced what they would've had to do is bring out people who said "HAZING IS GREAT !!" They didn't do that, or even bring up the fact that some groups don't haze and do good things for their college communities, so, IMO, to bring out people who say "ban greeks at all college campuses" which is what quite a few people interviewed did say toward the end of the show, wasn't balanced.

Coverage of the actual incidences reported on was fairly balanced, his conclusion about the whole hazing problem was not.

[adpiucf]

Human nature embraces any kind of rite of passage. Even impromptu ones --- that's where hazing comes in.

Hazing has come to be this glorified rite of passage; students expect it and in some cases welcome it.

That doesn't make it right. Greeks need to take more of a stance on hazing, and students and advisers need to eliminate it and publicize their success in eliminating it. Bad news spreads. You have to work to promote good news.

As we know.... Banning Greek Life won't eliminate hazing. It will just eliminate hazing in Greek organizations. Next we'll have to ban every known group activity until there is no possible way of influencing group-think.

... Hazing isn't going away. I don't condone it, and I am in favor of closing down chapters of organizations who haze.

While we're at it and crucifying college students, lower the drinking age back down to 18, and kids will stop drinking themselves to death in private... at least on a larger scale.

[Shelacious]

I TiVo'd it and watched this morning. I didn't think it was very balanced, which would be difficult to do in a hour under any circumstances.

1. The pledged girls who were abused were a part of a non-panhellenic, non-recognized sorority, but no one but GLO members would know that. It also make it sound like all the GLOs on Loyola have this same mentality, which may or may not be the case.

2. They spend a bunch of time talking about the HS hazed boy (really sad acutally), but in the end it's about "maybe we should ban GLOs on campuses." Didn't they just spend considerable time discussing how this hazing practices are often starting at the HS level? And how young folks are bringing their hazing rituals/attitudes to college? It seems like the bans and fixes should be starting there, but no one really suggested that.

3. The program only spoke to those hazing sorority members from that local sorority (who justified their pledging processes)--no one from the NPC, NIC, IFC, MGLO, NPHC, etc. The ZBT case was certainly about hazing, although not initiation based hazing, since the guy was already a member. That was an extremely unfortunate but less common situation (brothers beating up another brother for "ratting", throwing the poor guy out of the organization. Guy has an accidental or intentional OD).

There were some other problems with the story, but theses were some of the doozies. Understand that I am not negating any of the incidences of hazing, either on the show or IRL. However, it was a long on sensationalism and short on broad-based solutions (one about bonding activities instead and another about banning GLOs)

[ZetaGirl22]

I agree...I was actually quite surpirsed that they spent so much time with the high school wrestler segment, but to just jump to the conclusion that eliminating GLO's will end hazing is ridiculous.....I know that the most hazing on my campus was done by the athletes and the band......and I liked how the father of the wrestler justified that military hazing was ok b/c they are trying to build soldiers

Did any of you notice how alexandra robbins looked NOTHING like she looks in her pub photos? How the HELL did she pass as 19?!?!?!

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by ZetaGirl22
Did any of you notice how alexandra robbins looked NOTHING like she looks in her pub photos? How the HELL did she pass as 19?!?!?!

Maybe she didn't "pass off" as 19 at all.. there is the possiblity she made everything up

[alphaalpha]

Originally posted by ZetaGirl22

Did any of you notice how alexandra robbins looked NOTHING like she looks in her pub photos? How the HELL did she pass as 19?!?!?! [/B]

Make up can go a long way. Plus people can beleive what you tell them. so if you look older, but say you are 19 more often than not people will not question it (unless it is really obvious such as my grandmother saying she's 19,) well nobody would beleive that. But i am 30 years old and i can pass for 16 simply by styling my hair a certain way and wearing the right kind of make up. Not saying that is how it happened just saying that it can.

[NinjaPoodle]

Originally posted by ZetaGirl22
Did any of you notice how alexandra robbins looked NOTHING like she looks in her pub photos? How the HELL did she pass as 19?!?!?!

Yes, I noticed that also.

Originally posted by AlphaAlpha
Make up can go a long way. Plus people can beleive what you tell them. so if you look older, but say you are 19 more often than not people will not question it (unless it is really obvious such as my grandmother saying she's 19,) well nobody would beleive that. But i am 30 years old and i can pass for 16 simply by styling my hair a certain way and wearing the right kind of make up. Not saying that is how it happened just saying that it can.

Agreed

[sageofages]

Originally posted by Shelacious
2. They spend a bunch of time talking about the HS hazed boy (really sad acutally), but in the end it's about "maybe we should ban GLOs on campuses." Didn't they just spend considerable time discussing how this hazing practices are often starting at the HS level? And how young folks are bringing their hazing rituals/attitudes to college? It seems like the bans and fixes should be starting there, but no one really suggested that.

I agree wholeheartedly.

It starts even younger actually....relating personal experience here...

When my oldest son was a Tiger Cub Scout I was the "Den Mom."
When I attended my first pack meeting, there was a BobCat Rank awarding. The boys earn their BobCat rank before becoming a Cub Scout.

In my son's pack, the BobCat award ceremony was to have two GROWN men turned the child upside down (head to the ground feet way in the air) and the CubMaster wrote on his forehead the letter B with a permanent marker (ie, sharpie). (Motto of Scouting - Do a good turn NOTE: that is the BOY Scout motto, not the CUB Scout Motto)

I was shocked and horrified at the hazing of it, coming from a GLO background. Think about the implications of this....(and as a mom with a BIG - now 6'1/250lbs - son at the time even for 1st grade) I did. He would be scared to be turned upside down, but would be scared of being labeled a weiny, so he would do it anyway going against his better judgement. THEN knowing him, he would panic upside down, and be labeled a weiny anyway (or worse dropped because he was so big). Think about what it teaches these youngsters...if this was ok when I was in FIRST grade, *this plus that* is ok in High School, THEN *this plus that plus alcohol plus god knows what* is ok in college. Shudder, it just grows more dramatic and dangerous as tolerance to the hazing increases.

Shortly after the first pack meeting, I took the "leader" training offered by the local BSA Council and during the anti-hazing portion of the training, I specifically asked the trainer about this practice. I was told "well, some people think this might be hazing, but I don't know. We dont' really do anything about it".

I called the BSA National Executive Office and talked to the National Assistant Executive (Ernest Turner) at the time. He told me unequivocally, "this practice does not belong in scouting, should not be done, IS HAZING, and should be stopped immediately" He faxed me a letter to that, and sent a follow up letter as well (with a CC to the Council Executive). SURPRISE SURPRISE. I called the Council Executive and he said "well we dont' condone it, but we don't monitor all our packs". I said I had a letter for the Asst NED (that I knew he had been CC'd) and he basically brushed me off.

I took the letter to the CubMaster, and his response was "I don't care what it says I am doing it anyway" and in the end I was asked to not be a Den Mom because I raised trouble.

At that point, we withdrew our son from the pack and would not let our other 2 sons participate (I am First Class recipient 1977 for GSUSA, and my husband is an Eagle). Sidenote: boys are now -8 years later- back in a great BOY Scout troop, husband is asst scoutmaster and all are moving through the ranks.

I took the letter to the charter organization and FINALLY they said "stop this practice or we withdraw our support". The Pack choose to leave the school for a year. After that CubMaster retired, the Pack came back to the school and does NOT haze, as a direct result of my efforts.

A PRIME example of hazing learned young!! Stamping it out where we see it is critical. Teaching young people (grade school, high school and up) we work with that hazing at all is unacceptable, is the start to eliminating it.

[AGDee]

Wow sage, that totally floors me. As a den leader of my son's cub scout den, I can't imagine anybody treating the boys like that. Good for you for working so hard to put an end to that practice.

[alphaalpha]

Originally posted by sageofages
I agree wholeheartedly.

I took the letter to the CubMaster, and his response was "I don't care what it says I am doing it anyway" and in the end I was asked to not be a Den Mom because I raised trouble.


A PRIME example of hazing learned young!! Stamping it out where we see it is critical. Teaching young people (grade school, high school and up) we work with that hazing at all is unacceptable, is the start to eliminating it.

I have had soo many time of my life that i have "complained about something unjust or something that i felt was wrong and then i get the perverbial short end of the stick.

I am so glad that things worked out in the end. This reminds me of the thread about the high school in Texas where the freshman compalined and something was done about it. Its nice to see that things happen when good people stand up.

[hoosier]

This is a quandary for me.

I think kids deserve to have a little fun, and while I wouldn't want to be held upside down while somebody wrote on my forehead, it seems to me that you are describing an awards ceremony, which an 8-yr.-old boy would enjoy, and he would wear the "B" for bobcat proudly so all his classmates and teachers could know he was a winner.

Surely two adults could safely hold an 8-yr.-old upside down.

I'm not accusing you, but too many mothers today want to eliminate all risks from the lives of their children. They seem to only want only teacher and adult planned and supervised play, only on areas carefully padded with wood chips and rubber meeting Federal Standard 1234 (sec. ccd).

Another example is boys swimming naked at the YMCA and summer camps. Generations of boys grew up learning to swim in the suit God gave them, and showering after gym class in gang showers. (I last saw a nude swim class at U. Maryland about 1975). The past generation of mothers has ended these traditions, alarmed that shy little Johnny might feel "uncomfortable".

I'm opposed to GLO hazing, but the generations of boys grew into men - leaders, soldiers, inventors, teachers, etc. - not by suffering from hazing and locker room fun, but by learning to give and take.