Morals, Right vs Wrong, Role Models, Ethics, Scandals, Drugs

Sverige · #1 08-21-2003, 02:00 PM

The Gay/Lesbian thread has got me thinking on a few things, so here goes:

I don't understand how people can actually say that something is right and something is wrong. How does man decide what is moral and what is not? And what/who is the foundation and basis of that determination? What makes something ethical or non-ethical? What make someone moral or immoral?

In todays society children and adults have role models, or people they want to be like or look up to. These people who others look up to are in all kinds of professions. Some are Doctors, Lawyers, Atheletes, Pop Stars, Actors, Teachers, Politicians (unbelievable), Buisness moguls, Movie Directors, computer geeks (Bill Gates), etc etc etc. As children we often say the phrase "I want to be like----when I grow up." And parents think it's a good thing for children to be like that. But what I have a hard time understanding is that what makes someone a good person/role model and how do you know that they are a moral/unmoral person? Is it because of their appearance? There are millions of children who look up to atheletes, however these children do not understand what some of their rolemodel atheletes are like. The children don't know their rolemodels use drugs or cheat on their wifes, have sex with high roller call girls and may or may not participate in vairous other activities. Yet, people think it's good to be like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant or Dan Marino until they get caught in the act. I have 4 friends in Law school right now, they'll be lawyers some day. 3 others have already graduated and work in firms. All of them have or currently use drugs for recreational purposes. 1 of them is gay, but hasnt come of the closet. 2 of them have been arrested for driving under the influence and 1 of the two has been arrested 2 times for driving under the influence. One of 7 regurarly gets blow jobs from prostitutes. Now, if you ask people who know them or their classmates people will tell you they're good people, very nice. One girl is known by many many people at her law school as being a straight person and all around good girl. People look up to her in a sense. However, I know what this girl does and has done in the past. She'd probably get kicked out of school if people knew what shes really like and does on the side. Yet, someday people will look up to these individuals and say they are good/moral people. I also have 3 friends in Medical School and 2 who are doctors. 2 of the friends in medical school have financed their way through school by selling cocaine, lots of it. It's mostly been cocaine but also a lot of XTC has been sold as well. They will be docotors one day very soon. people will look up to them and never know how they got to where they are. 1 friend who is currently a doctor routinely asks me for certain substances and will give me 3,000$ and tell me to get whatever i can with it. This guy is a respectable plastic surgeon in his early 40's. He is loaded and I'm sure he has helped make many many women feel better about themselves, inturn making him seem like a good person. Again, there are people who look up to him and don't know what he's really like. Personally I think he's gay but he covers it up by always having young hot girls with us when we have a party on his boat, a lot of people would ( sadly) loose respect for him if they found out he's gay. Then there's the whole men of god thing. Priests, Pastors, Reverands, Preachers, whatever you call them, are supposed to be the best in the the area of morals and ethics. Yet, my Priest while growing up was caught in a gay sex scandal. He was my, along with many others, spiritual instructor for a LONG time. After he was caught publicly in an immoral act with 3 other men it devastated many. My father didn't want to have anything to do with church or god for a LONG time because of it. The minister was deemed an outcast after being considered a rolemodel by many for a VERY long time.

I don't see how people have a hard time understanding why there are so many fucked up people in society when half of the people who others look up and strive to be like seem to be immoral because of their actions behind the scenes. My point is that you never know what someone is really like. Nobody can truly be an example of good values, ethics, morality or sincerity in my opinion. All it takes is a simple scandal or "cat out of the bag", if you will, before that good person and their ideals/ beliefs are shot to hell.

There's another side to all of this as well. What one person considers immoral, others might not look upon it as bad. In America a large part of the population deem homosexuality as immoral. In other parts of the world it's nothing people really give two shits about. In certain parts of the world people look at George W. Bush as an evil person, yet in other parts people look at him as a man of god and a person with good morals. Bill Clinton and his administration was looked upon as something good standing up for gay rights, yet others looked down on him and even more so after his Monica Lewinski scandal. He was impeached! Now, had George W. not invaded iraq or had Clinton not got busted for getting head from an intern, would peopel still look at them as good, or bad? Had Kobe Bryant never had a rape charge brought against him, do you think most would agree he'd still be a good person? Had Nelson Mandela and his family never been involved in a scandal, do you think he'd still be looked upon as good? Had Tony Blair never gone with the US in the war against iraq, do you think the majority of the british population would still like him?

My thought on it all? Morals and Ethics are just something made up by man and implemented into his offspring, whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant. Christians believe one thing while Muslims, Bhuddists, Hindus and Confucions believe another. All of them deem the beliefs of the others as wrong. Usually it takes a governmental judiciuary system to deem what is acceptable and what is not in society. Yet, they are all composed of man and are therefore not immune from immorality and/or evil. So, why bitch and complain about what is right and what is wrong? I believe that if we all just live our lives and stop worrying about others are doing, unless it's a national security matter, then the world would be a much better of a place to live in. If what someone does does not have a bad effect on the lives of others, then why bother them or try to change them? At the same time I don't believe that we, as people, should strive to be like anyone else. Sometimes the very people we strive to be like have been or are like the same people we are dead set against.

What are your thoughts? Discuss.

sugar and spice · #2 08-21-2003, 02:12 PM

Morals are NEVER black and white, and that's why it worries me that some people think it's okay to impose their moral code on everyone else. Even the things that would think would be most simplistic are pretty complicated when you get to the heart of it. For example, murder is wrong, right? But what about murder in self-defense? What about manslaughter? There are belief systems out there which decree that it's wrong to kill a fly just like it's wrong to kill a man. Is it okay to kill an animal? If you are going to starve to death if you don't eat it? Okay if you kill it humanely, but not if you butcher it? What about cases where you're killing yourself -- should an attempted suicide be treated like an attempted murder? Is assisted suicide okay? Should a woman be allowed to kill her unborn child, seeing as how it is an extension of her body? Or IS it an extension of her body?

You ask a hundred different people these questions and you will get a hundred different interpretations. So how do we decide exactly what is right and what is wrong?

PiKA2001 · #3 08-21-2003, 02:12 PM

Try not to worry about what society thinks as moral because in the end it's nothing but religious bullshit. For example:

I was raised Christian ( Catholic) According to the Priests and Ministers at the church's i've attended all Muslims , Jews, and any other non christians are going straight to hell when they die. Same as many muslims feel that christians are going to suffer in the afterlife. There truly is no right or wrong in the world, it's just religious law.

Sverige · #4 08-21-2003, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PiKA2001
Try not to worry about what society thinks as moral because in the end it's nothing but religious bullshit.

If thats true, how would you explain what the old Soviet Union deemed right or wrong? It was an Atheist country you know. Likewise with China.

PiKA2001 · #5 08-21-2003, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sverige
If thats true, how would you explain what the old Soviet Union deemed right or wrong? It was an Atheist country you know. Likewise with China.

A lot of countries that are athiest, like the ones you mentioned and South Korea, the founder or current leader of that country is to decide that fact. And in many countries that leader is very GOD-like in the way people follow and worship him.

Sverige · #6 08-21-2003, 03:16 PM

Ok, so instead of morals being a religous thing...it is also politics as well? If thats true then morals are just mindsets of those who hold political office and religious fanatics who have status, implemented into society. And since we all know politicians are usually in office because of the money they have or are tied to vast amounts of money, then would it be safe to say morals are basically spun out of the web of money and power and therefore wrong altogether?

Deep I know, but something I've often thought about.

cuaphi · #7 08-21-2003, 03:45 PM

Gosh, you and UFPike have had a lot of the same life experiences. I think he said his friends were aspiring lawyers... that's interesting. By the way, I don't believe you've ever told us where you went to school. What organization are you a member of?

Back to the subject at hand. I believe that there is a basic moral code and that fundamental principles of the ten commandments can be found in other religions. The most primary aspect of any religion is to do unto others as you would have done unto you and to try to love one another as God (in whatever form) loves each of us.
Yes it is immoral for a lawyer to not respect the laws he exists to uphold. Yes it is immoral for a future doctor to make a living off of substances that cause potential harm. Sure we place too much respect at the feet of professional athletes without really knowing them as people. One could argue that this is an example of false idolatry though.
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Selling coke hurts people, driving drunk has the great potential to hurt people. These are not victimless crimes and I think lawmakers should put punishments in place for these offenses. As for whether or not adultery should be punished, there's already a thread on that. However, I agree if you're geniunely not hurting anyone that people need to learn to mind their own damn business.
You seem to be asking if a capitalist society tends to reward people whe aren't behaving by good moral standards and the answer to that is an unequivocal yes. That's why people believe in things like Hell and Karma. Hopefully we'll all get what's coming to us one way or the other.

Sverige · #8 08-21-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cuaphi
Gosh, you and UFPike have had a lot of the same life experiences. I think he said his friends were aspiring lawyers... that's interesting. By the way, I don't believe you've ever told us where you went to school. What organization are you a member of?

Other than on greekchat being called the pike, I doubt we have the same experiences. School? Org.? It shouldn't really matter, should it?

Sverige · #9 08-21-2003, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cuaphi
You seem to be asking if a capitalist society tends to reward people whe aren't behaving by good moral standards and the answer to that is an unequivocal yes.

Glad to see you figured that one out. That said, do you view capitalist countries as immoral and/or evil?

swissmiss04 · #10 08-21-2003, 04:04 PM

Case in point: What's going on 2 hours from here in the state capital. It's a case of one man hell-bent (no pun intended) on imposing his version of morals on an entire state of people, not all of whom share his view. Judge Roy Moore is a disgrace to the judicial system and to the state.

cash78mere · #11 08-21-2003, 04:07 PM

wow, you have a lot of messed up friends. maybe you should find a different crowd to run with!

seriously though, people look up to others who seem larger than life. they like to overlook the negatives and focus on the power and prestige that their role model has. it's wrong, but that's what people do

cuaphi · #12 08-21-2003, 04:09 PM

No. Corruption and misdoing has always existed and always will. The Christian explanation for this is Original Sin in the Garden of Eden and humanity being cast from paradise.

As for my questions, I was just curious. This being a GLO message board, most people are pretty open about their affiliations. UFPike posted many comments on drug use, body building, injections, raves, techno music, his very successfull daddy, and his array of ex girlfriends. I tell ya, take a low blow at Delta Gamma and keep fighting with kddani and it'll be like he never left.

Sverige · #13 08-21-2003, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cuaphi
No. Corruption and misdoing has always existed and always will. The Christian explanation for this is Original Sin in the Garden of Eden and humanity being cast from paradise.

As for my questions, I was just curious. This being a GLO message board, most people are pretty open about their affiliations. UFPike posted many comments on drug use, body building, injections, raves, techno music, his very successfull daddy, and his array of ex girlfriends. I tell ya, take a low blow at Delta Gamma and keep fighting with kddani and it'll be like he never left.

I choose not to put my org. In my name, mainly because my ideals and beliefs no longer resemble those of which my Org have. Besides, most of the guys in my org did everything opposite of what we are supposed to be like. We were only nice to girls who were around us inorder to get in their panties or in most cases, between their thongs. If you do a search on my looking back on greek years topic you'd see what I'm talking about. I found out there's more to life than the sorts of things we used to concern ourselves with; always getting sex, pimpin, seeing whos the baddest org around, making sure no one in the chapter gets beat down, etc etc etc...that kind of stuff. Everyone bitched when it came time to do community service and in most cases guys never showed up. Brothers who had a problem with each other would always fight it out. I don't know, maybe it's just me but I dont think that kind of stuff is what an org should be about. Low blow from Delta Gamma? I've felt what pike goes though with kddani, but no Delta Gamma here has said anything bad to me. Lets hope it stays that way.

Sverige · #14 08-21-2003, 04:34 PM

Back to topic!

DeltAlum · #15 08-21-2003, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sverige
What are your thoughts? Discuss.

My brain hurts.