What would you do?

[the411]

Let's say you and the love of your life were scheduled to marry this year, and you'd already booked Rev. Jesse Jackson to preside over the nuptials, long before the scandal was revealed to you and to the rest of the public.

In light of what he did, and how it violates everything a marriage stands for, would you still have him perform the ceremony and marry you?

Food for thought.

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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[This message has been edited by the411 (edited February 08, 2001).]

[Mz. Sports Luva]

Oh, no ma'am! He would not be allowed to perform my ceremony!

I want my wedding day to be peaceful. No controversy allowed!

[DST Love]

There is no way!! I will be sure that all people included in my wedding party respect the institution of marriage. That to me is like having a maid of honor or best man that cheats on their spouse or one that is cheating with someone else's spouse. How can I expect that person to appreciate and enjoy what I will be embarking upon when they don't even take it seriously. The people in your wedding party should be people you respect and who respect your decision to enter into marriage.

[This message has been edited by DST Love (edited February 08, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by DST Love (edited February 08, 2001).]

[AKA2D '91]

Hello all...

I don't know how I would react. For the simple fact that we all FALL SHORT! I guess I would know how to react, I would let him perform my ceremony. Especially if it was found out at the LAST minute.

What's the difference between Jesse performing a ceremony and ANY OTHER CLERGY WHO HAS COMMITTED A SIN? NOTHING!These folks are performing ceremonies EVERY WEEKEND! There are many pastors, preachers, ministers, priests, elders, etc. who have done what Jesse or any other has done OR WORSE. Maybe it was rumored or was actually true.

If someone does not want to attend my wedding for that simple reason, oh well. As long as my fiance is there and my mother, sister, brother-n-law, nieces, and nephew are there...BUMP THE REST! lol And, as long as Jesse or whoever it may be has held himself accountable to the MAN upstairs AND has taken care of his business with HIM, then who am I or anyone else to judge?
By the way, folks will be all up in that place, JUST TO SEE! (ya'll know how we are!)

Flipping the script, what if Jesse (before this all came out) or any clergy member refused to perform your ceremony because you were NOT a virgin, had child(ren) out of wedlock, shacked (living together), divorced etc?

...SAME SCRIPT DIFFERENT CAST!

Mind you, I do not agree with what he did, but he is HUMAN and so are WE!

That's just my OPINION!

[the411]

AKA2D has a point!

Let's also remember that Jesse don't come cheap! You and your fiance (or your parents) probably had to front a pretty penny (non-refundable) just to book him. Would that change anything for those of you who say "NO WAY!" to having him perform your ceremony?

I'm just havin' fun here...

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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE

[This message has been edited by the411 (edited February 08, 2001).]

[AKA2D '91]

[quote]Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
[b]

Originally posted by AKA2D '91:
H
I think that we really use the phrases "who are we to judge", and "we all have fallen short" really to excuse our own behavior moreso than the one's whose behavior is in question. Of course, we are to forgive, but there must be some penance by the offender, not business as usual. That forgiveness implies that you "will go forth and sin no more".

Now for the benediction......

I am not/do not use it as an excuse. I cannot judge ANYONE, the ONLY perfect person around these parts is the MAN upstairs....

Anyway, there are many clergy members out there whose indiscretions, whatever they were, were exposed and are still leading their flocks...SO, THESE MEMBERS KNOW!

I agree, 411 it is something to ponder, when I think that Jesse's appearance cost like $125,000 or so...after paying that anount of $$$, you think I'm gonna get someone else, YOU MUST BE OUT OF YO DAYUM MIND!

[ASU Diva2003]

I would go ahead with the ceremony with Rev. Jackson presiding over it. Who are we? We don't have a heaven or a hell to put this man in and the only person that he has to answer to is God and I know that he will forgive his sins. It has nothing to do with him not respecting the institution of marriage it could be other factors. And if everyone did a "screening" of ALL Rev's. that of course preside over marriages you would come across some that have not been faithful to their wives. We are all human and all fall short of the glory of God. That's why he forgives our sins. AND NO ONE SIN IN PARTICULAR IS BIGGER THAN THE OTHER! We need to pray for this family and understand that although he is a Rev. he is still human and not perfect. He is not first person to commit adultery and he will not be the last.


ASU Diva2003

[DoggyStyle82]

Ladies, the point is not whether we have a heaven or hell for Jesse or even judging him. That is not the point. The point is whether or not you would accept the SACRAMENTS of Marriage and have your HOLY UNION officiated, presided over, and sanctified by someone who recently violated all of the vows that he is asking you to swear to under the authority of GOD. If you are amenable to this, this means that you have NO STANDARDS and any STANDARDS that you purport to have are meaningless because you have proven that expediency and moral relativity are your masters. The fact that other people sinned, may have sinned, or will sin is immaterial when dealing with the merits of a single case. Again, I say, the not judging thing is a cop-out for jaded people who refuse to hold themselves and others to a standard of behavior for fear of being a hippocrate and actually having to live up to concrete (non-malleable) values. Do we have to wait until the day at the Pearly Gates to hold someone accountable for their behavior? I say all this as a fully acknowledged sinner and imperfect Christian, but I don't excuse my sins, nor anyone elses, especially because others have done it (that is the lamest of all).

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by AKA2D '91:
I am not/do not use it as an excuse. I cannot judge ANYONE, the ONLY perfect person around these parts is the MAN upstairs....

D

You do realize the implications of your thought process? Its not about being perfect. It has to do with the propriety of him doing a job in which he violated a Cardinal Precept. Would you let a thief be your investment counselor?. Would you let an obese person teach you aerobics?. Would you take contraceptive advice from a teenage mother? Why take wedding vows from an adulterer, non-safe sex having, father of an out of wedlock child. If you can't judge by someone's pattern of behavior in the job that they are called to do, why care at all. I'm not judging Jesse the Man, that is God's domain, I'm judging Jesse the Reverend. If you don't see the fallacy in that thinking then there is nothing else to say.

[DST Love]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
You do realize the implications of your thought process? Its not about being perfect. It has to do with the propriety of him doing a job in which he violated a Cardinal Precept. Would you let a thief be your investment counselor?. Would you let an obese person teach you aerobics?. Would you take contraceptive advice from a teenage mother? Why take wedding vows from an adulterer, non-safe sex having, father of an out of wedlock child. If you can't judge by someone's pattern of behavior in the job that they are called to do, why care at all. I'm not judging Jesse the Man, that is God's domain, I'm judging Jesse the Reverend. If you don't see the fallacy in that thinking then there is nothing else to say.

Why am I just totally diggin' you, DoggyStyle82? Thank you. Both of your points were wonderful. I like you am sick of people saying everyone makes mistakes. That's a given. But maybe if we all start holding each other accountable, we'd feel more ashamed and less likely to repeat those so-called mistakes, or as I call them choices.

Like I posted earlier and like you said DoggyStyle82, this is not about judging someone, this is about that paticular situation. And there is no way in hell I would let a minister who laughs at the sanctity of marriage and does not take the vows with God seriously preside over my marriage vows. What type of beginning is that for me and my husband?! If a minister did not want to marry two people because they are not virgins. Then that is his right. If he believes that being virgins is the only way to start off a good marriage, then he should not compromise his beliefs. Just the same, I would be compromising my beleifs, if I and my husband to be felt that cheating is wrong (which I hope most couples do beleive) but yet we're letting some man who doesn't think that it's wrong provide us with those special vows that we say to each other and plan to hold dear in our hearts. That's just way to hypocrital to me.

C'mon people, stop taking the easy way out with these we're only human, everyone makes mistakes, and who are we to judge. Yeah, that's true to an extent but if we are all spiritual people then how can you stand by and condone someone's actions that greatly conflict with your own beliefs. Again, just the same that if someone thinks something I'm doing or saying goes against their beliefs then I would expect them to distance themselves from me. You don't have to chastize or criticize but you certainly don't have to condone it either. Condoning is not just saying you agree or doing the same actions, it is also when you stand by quietly and accept what is before you without excusing yourself from that situation.

[This message has been edited by DST Love (edited February 09, 2001).]

[DST Love]

Can I say again that I just keep rereading your posts, DoggyStyle82, and I cannot believe how much that sounds like something I would say. And to add, you're so right when you say that people try to use that judging thing because they are afraid to be hypocrites or face their own demons. But I welcome those opportunities because I feel it makes me take a nice long look at myself. That to me is the only way you continue to grow as a person, get to know yourself better, and ensure that you, yourself, are keeping in line with your spirituality and values.

[the411]

Well, since I posed the question, I should answer it, right?

There is NO way on earth I'd let a person perform my ceremony, participate in my ceremony, or coordinate my ceremony who does not live by or or has not upheld his/her own marriage vows. Yes, Jesse is human, and therefore imperfect and prone to mistakes, but that doesn't justify his actions. Yes we can (and perhaps we should) forgive him and not condemn him, but the fact remains-- HIS ACTIONS WERE WRONG. As Christians, we have to first KNOW right from wrong, and THEN we face the challenge of making the decision to do one or the other. Jesse clearly chose wrong over right--WHY he did it isn't the issue. The question was: Should he still perform a ceremony of this nature, given his WRONG-doing? And, as much as we love him, I think the answer has to be "No."

I greatly admire the man for his many wonderful, history-making achievements, and for his PERSEVERANCE and steadfast commitment to civil rights, equality, and UPLIFT for blacks, but I do believe that as a teacher of God's Word, he has a moral obligation to set an example of riteousness-- an obligation he failed to fulfill because of his infidelity.

I'm not doubting that his actions have been an eye-opening, life-altering, and humbling experience that may even pull him closer to Christ-- sometimes we need to mess up in order to appreciate God's love, forgiveness, and unchanging hand, AND to understand the value, importance, and CHALLENGES involved in the maintenance of a good marriage.

But for him (or any other past/present "cheat") to officiate in a marriage ceremony would send a message that neither I nor my husband-to-be fully understand, accept, or acknowledge the importance of the vows we are about to recite. If we can see nothing wrong with it (and if we're more concerned with getting our "money's worth" and/or having a famous person perform our ceremony), then we clearly don't have our s#%@ together and don't have any business getting married anyway!

And I'm out!


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Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE



[This message has been edited by the411 (edited February 09, 2001).]

[Ideal08]

Soror AKA2D'91, I agree with your posts. None of us know what people do behind closed doors. The pastor marrying you in Jesse's place could be doing any and everything behind closed doors that you know nothing about. And later for the "if I don't know then what difference would it make?" because it is still the same principle. You don't KNOW how people in your wedding party regard the sacraments of marriage. All we know is what we see and what we are told. Unless you are a part of it, YOU DON'T KNOW. You don't really know if the maid of honor or best man is cheating on her/his spouse. What it all boils down to is FAITH and TRUST. You trust that you KNOW the people in your wedding party, and that they respect the institution of marriage. You have FAITH that the minister who is marrying you respects the institution of marriage. What it sounds like to me, you don't have FAITH that God can do what He said he could, and that is cleanse us of our sins. IF Jesse has repented, he has been washed FREE of his sin. God has let it go, why are we still holding on?????

As far as who we take advice from, just because we don't do something does not mean we don't know how. Would I take contraceptive advice from a teenage mother? Probably--she has probably learned the MOST from her mistake. My mother always told me that sometimes you have to learn from other people's mistakes, because you won't live long enough to make them all on your own. Who are we to discount people based on their experiences and mistakes??? Would you let a theif be your investment counselor? This type of mentality means that we don't believe in rehabilitation. When you go to an investment banker, do you have her/him give you their criminal background? YOU DON'T KNOW. My pastor is a reformed drug addict (Carla, am I right?). He used to follow Satan for a living. And now, he is leading souls to Christ. Should we all just get up and walk out of church because of his past experiences? Because that is exactly what we are doing to Jesse, persecuting him for his mistakes and past experiences.

Holding people accountable for their actions and passing judgement are two totally different things. Regardless of if your are judging Jesse the Man or Jesse the Reverend, the fact of the matter is, you are still passing judgement. Period. And GOD said, judge not lest ye be judged. Period. I can agree with you in saying that this is a single case. That being true, you have to hold Jesse accountable based on his position. Clarification: At our jobs, we are held accountable based on our responsiblities as outlined in the employee handbook. How we are reprimanded is also outlined in the employee handbook. So, in Jesse's case, in holding Jesse the Reverend accountable, we must do so by The Word. It is The Word that dictates to us that we should not pass judgement. Refusing to pass judgement is NOT a cop-out, it is OBEYING CHRIST. So if obeying Christ is a cop-out, then I'm copping out everyday.

Not excusing your sins nor anyone elses. Is that the same thing as not forgiving? "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us." God won't cleanse us of our sins if we don't forgive other people for their sins.

Just my .08

[DST Love]

Originally posted by the411:
Well, since I posed the question, I should answer it, right?

There is NO way on earth I'd let a person perform my ceremony, participate in my ceremony, or coordinate my ceremony who does or has not upheld his/her own marriage vows. Yes, Jesse is human, and therefore imperfect and prone to mistakes, but that doesn't excuse his actions.

I greatly admire the man for his many wonderful, history-making achievements, and for his perseverance and steadfast commitment to civil rights and equality for blacks, but I do believe that as a teacher of God's Word, he has a moral obligation to set an example of riteousness-- an obligation he failed to fulfill because of his infidelity.

I'm not doubting that his actions have been an eye-opening, life-altering experience that will bring him closer to Christ-- sometimes we need to fall or be on the bottom in order to appreciate God's love, forgiveness, and and unchanging hand, AND to understand the value, importance, and CHALLENGES involved in the maintenance of a good marriage. But for him (or any other past/present "cheat") to officiate in a marriage ceremony would send a message that neither I nor my husband-to-be fully understand, accept, or acknowledge the importance of the vows we are about to recite. If we can see nothing wrong with it (and if we're more concerned with getting our "money's worth" and/or having a famous person perform our ceremony, then we clearly don't have our s#%@ together and don't have any business getting married anyway!

And I'm out!

Preach on, preach on!! It's funny how people put money before morality. No wonder this world is in total chaos. No one has any convictions or principles by which they stand.

Anywho, in rereading the posts I saw something else to respond to. Posted by ASU Diva2003, "And if everyone did a "screening" of ALL Rev's. that of course preside over marriages you would come across some that have not been faithful to their wives". No you can't screen every reverend or every person that might be in your wedding. But that's a moot point. I can't help or control that which I do not know. But that is the point. I do know that Jesse Jackson disrepected his own vows with his wife and God so I CAN make the decision to not let him preside over my wedding.

[the411]

Originally posted by DST Love:
I can't help or control that which I do not know. But that is the point. I do know that Jesse Jackson disrepected his own vows with his wife and God so I CAN make the decision to not let him preside over my wedding.

Exactly! It's true that anyone could have done or be doing the same thing, but if I don't KNOW that, then I can't act on it. If I DID know it, they'd be out the door, for sure! How could you KNOW and still have the person do the ceremony?
Personally, I wouldn't even want such a person in my wedding party, but that's a different topic altogether. Right now, I'm focusing on the person who presides over the nuptials.

------------------
Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.
Pi Kappa, SP97
#3 of QUINTESSENCE