Are you a "sheep" in need of a "shepherd"?

[The Cushite]

Bruhs and GC fam,

I have had some interesting experiences in bible study the last few months. The church I attend here in Columbia, MO is about to embark on a relocation and openning of a new building. In this effort, the pastor has been trying to galvanize the members to step up their level of commitment (by increasing the time, talent, and treasure they are giving to the church). While I find this to actually be a smart move, how this is beginning to play out is becoming very challenging to me. Here are some interesting points:

1. For the last month, an associate minister has been doing a bible study taken from a book entitled The Purpose Driven Church in which he challenges us to be more committed to membership. Membership includes understanding submission to authority. Here's where it gets interesting. In submitting to authority, the church membership should not try to vote on things. They should just follow the shepherd's vision for the church. The phrase "Drink the Kool aid" popped in my mind whenever he mentioned this .

2. After the bible study, the ast. minister called for those who would recommit to a church with such a structure, and only a few women pledged to do so, none of the men in attendance stood up. The minister asked me why I didn't stand up, and I explained to him that I didn't agree with many of the points he presented. Then he proceeded to question my commitment to the church, which was on some level problematic, but on another prompted me to think "who was he that I would have to proove anything to?"

3. I later talked to the pastor of the church, who expressed that he feels that democracy in the church is symptomatic of the people not submitting to authority of the pastor. He went on to state that this shows that people do not understand submission in general, and do not respect the biblical design for church structure. I felt that to try to assert this type of leadership with reasonable people would just drive them away from the church, thus making the church irrelevant. What do you guys think?

Blackwatch-The Cushite!!!!!!

[abaici]

Truthfully, I have a problem following. However, by readign your statments, it allowed me to step outside myself and look at some of the things that I have spouted off.

You said: "who was he that I would have to proove anything to?"

He's the person who assists the pastor in guiding your spiritual life. He is accountable for it.

He went on to state that this shows that people do not understand submission in general, and do not respect the biblical design for church structure. I felt that to try to assert this type of leadership with reasonable people would just drive them away from the church, thus making the church irrelevant.

It's true. We have a problem following. Now, if you have a problem with entrusting your spritual growth and well-being to your Pastor, you may need to find another flock. By the same token, women have problems submitting to their husband. Submitting does not mean that you are letting someone who does not have your BEST interest at heart make decisions for you. If your husband is a man of God and following His Word, it should not be a problem for you to let him guide you. This goes for your Pastor as well. If he is doing the right thing, then why AREN'T you following his lead?

[Professor]

interesting - i agree with all - we do have a problem folllowing the pastor - i often feel they know no more than i do and i certainly think that i have just as much connection with god as my pastor.

the key to church is to find one that you believe in - find one that supports your spiritual up-lift - the more uplift you receive, the more trusting and faithful you will be to the ministry.

[ladygreek]

IMO, a good leader who is true to the cause, e.g. the spiritual agenda versus a personal agenda, does not have to demand followship or submission.

You didn't state your denomination, but the denomination I grew up in is a democracy. The pastor is chosen by the congregation not assigned. Therefore, he or she does serve at the will of the members.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by The Cushite
Bruhs and GC fam,

I have had some interesting experiences in bible study the last few months. The church I attend here in Columbia, MO is about to embark on a relocation and openning of a new building. In this effort, the pastor has been trying to galvanize the members to step up their level of commitment (by increasing the time, talent, and treasure they are giving to the church). While I find this to actually be a smart move, how this is beginning to play out is becoming very challenging to me. Here are some interesting points:

1. For the last month, an associate minister has been doing a bible study taken from a book entitled The Purpose Driven Church in which he challenges us to be more committed to membership. Membership includes understanding submission to authority. Here's where it gets interesting. In submitting to authority, the church membership should not try to vote on things. They should just follow the shepherd's vision for the church. The phrase "Drink the Kool aid" popped in my mind whenever he mentioned this .

2. After the bible study, the ast. minister called for those who would recommit to a church with such a structure, and only a few women pledged to do so, none of the men in attendance stood up. The minister asked me why I didn't stand up, and I explained to him that I didn't agree with many of the points he presented. Then he proceeded to question my commitment to the church, which was on some level problematic, but on another prompted me to think "who was he that I would have to proove anything to?"

3. I later talked to the pastor of the church, who expressed that he feels that democracy in the church is symptomatic of the people not submitting to authority of the pastor. He went on to state that this shows that people do not understand submission in general, and do not respect the biblical design for church structure. I felt that to try to assert this type of leadership with reasonable people would just drive them away from the church, thus making the church irrelevant. What do you guys think?

Blackwatch-The Cushite!!!!!!

Now you Christian men understand what we Christian wives struggle with everyday! LOL

Seriously, my pastor believes in this same concept (i.e. the head/"leader" of the Pastor is God. Deacons and Trustees are there to advise. There are no congretional votes on ANYTHING, but opinions are solicited and folks don't have a problem sharing. Ultimately the final authority is the Pastor with the leading of the Holy Spirit), but biblically there is evidence of "voting" taking place in the early--actually preChurch. If you recall, the disciples chose 2 men, prayed to the Lord, then cast lots to appoint Matthias then 12th in place of Judas. (Acts 1:20-26) Now, some may say all of the followers of Christ did not make this select, only those closest, but the fact remain, there was sometime of process, with the leading of God (because now that I think about the the Holy Spirit had not yet come, right?)

Anyway, while I don't agree with everything my pastor says and does, I do try to practice Godly submission. Does this mean I would allow him to lead me off a cliff or as Blackwatch (we've missed you around these parts!) said "Drink the koolaid"? NO! No more than I would consider allowing my husband to cheat on me or beat me part of my duty of submitting to my husband. God not the author of confusion, so if something serious came up that I could not support because I thought it went against the word of God, I would be duty bound to discuss it with him, try to have him see the error of his ways then leave the church. Where It hink the problem comes in too many Christain churches is that folks cannot and willnot submit to the church's leadership, but will stay and be an ACTIVE disruptive force in the church. This causes churches to split, souls that should have been won to stay lost and all sorts of things that damage the kingdom.

My job is to pray for my pastor that he hears--CLEARLY--the voice of God so that even when I think he is going to wrong way, the Lord will get him back on track. There have been times when I was like "uh huh, that ain' right" at church and sometimes my pastor has had to come back and apologize to the congregation for not doing what the Lord told him to do.

To make a long story short, I can follow someone easier who is wrong occasionally, but has the humility and strength to admit it, than someone who needs to call a committee meeting to decide what color tie he should wear to Revival next week.

[sdj26]

Hello,
I have a great Pastor who teaches us not to following anyone blindly. Your salvation is a personal thing based on your relationship with God not man.
He does have the final authority in the church is my "covering" as a single women. We do not vote in my church buit follow his vision. Therefore I do seek his advise. But I follow God not him but I do respect his leadership. And that respect came for him being a Godly upright man and knowing the Word of God. Please let me know what scripture he is using to support this. Also, why are they requiring that people opening committee to this?

[Steeltrap]

Originally posted by sdj26
Hello,
I have a great Pastor who teaches us not to following anyone blindly. Your salvation is a personal thing based on your relationship with God not man.
He does have the final authority in the church is my "covering" as a single women. We do not vote in my church buit follow his vision. Therefore I do seek his advise. But I follow God not him but I do respect his leadership. And that respect came for him being a Godly upright man and knowing the Word of God. Please let me know what scripture he is using to support this. Also, why are they requiring that people opening committee to this?

Welcome to GC.
Please visit this thread...

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=19197

[delph998]

Originally posted by Eclipse
Now you Christian men understand what we Christian wives struggle with everyday! LOL

Seriously, my pastor believes in this same concept (i.e. the head/"leader" of the Pastor is God. Deacons and Trustees are there to advise. There are no congretional votes on ANYTHING, but opinions are solicited and folks don't have a problem sharing. Ultimately the final authority is the Pastor with the leading of the Holy Spirit), but biblically there is evidence of "voting" taking place in the early--actually preChurch. If you recall, the disciples chose 2 men, prayed to the Lord, then cast lots to appoint Matthias then 12th in place of Judas. (Acts 1:20-26) Now, some may say all of the followers of Christ did not make this select, only those closest, but the fact remain, there was sometime of process, with the leading of God (because now that I think about the the Holy Spirit had not yet come, right?)

Anyway, while I don't agree with everything my pastor says and does, I do try to practice Godly submission. Does this mean I would allow him to lead me off a cliff or as Blackwatch (we've missed you around these parts!) said "Drink the koolaid"? NO! No more than I would consider allowing my husband to cheat on me or beat me part of my duty of submitting to my husband. God not the author of confusion, so if something serious came up that I could not support because I thought it went against the word of God, I would be duty bound to discuss it with him, try to have him see the error of his ways then leave the church. Where It hink the problem comes in too many Christain churches is that folks cannot and willnot submit to the church's leadership, but will stay and be an ACTIVE disruptive force in the church. This causes churches to split, souls that should have been won to stay lost and all sorts of things that damage the kingdom.

My job is to pray for my pastor that he hears--CLEARLY--the voice of God so that even when I think he is going to wrong way, the Lord will get him back on track. There have been times when I was like "uh huh, that ain' right" at church and sometimes my pastor has had to come back and apologize to the congregation for not doing what the Lord told him to do.

To make a long story short, I can follow someone easier who is wrong occasionally, but has the humility and strength to admit it, than someone who needs to call a committee meeting to decide what color tie he should wear to Revival next week.

Very, very well said!