chapter losses...how many, where?

[Erik P Conard]

Have any of you inquired from your national (no S) or from your
international (no S) how many chapters you have lost in the past, say, five years?
How many did you lose last year? Where? Why?
It is high time we come to grips with these losses. And the miserable U officials, eager to build empires, snatch up the houses without having to go to the legislature for the bucks to build new structures...nefarious, sneaky.
Again, how many did your outfit lose? There's not that many being kicked off, i.e., destroying the entire system. Alumni offices are well aware that Greeks are the biggest donors...but the tenured
profs and administrators do not care...they are empire builders.
Nice to have the students all sequestered in ten-story high rises,
all neatly controlled...another layer of bureaucracy we need....
And the composites of uglies in the co-ed outfits continue to pop up...and in the meantime, we are pressing our crinolines and our
bloomers and our sashes and sabres...
How many did your outfit lose last year? Will you be next? Will you merely bury your head in the sand, and look forward to getting out, joining the Junior League or Jaycees?

[Kevin]

I don't think it's a war between competing interests as you seem to characterize it. Yes, the Greek system is changing. Many HQ's have accepted the fact that more and more, chapters are not operating large houses these days.

With every era, there has been some kind of major change in the Greek system. I think the change we are going through is going to be much more pronounced than many of the others, but as far as jeopardizing our existence? Hardly.

Perhaps more of our alums will choose to give to their individual chapters rather than the school? Perhaps we will begin to operate incredibly successful chapters using the same resources as other student organizations on campus. Perhaps our housing operations will have to move further off campus into more unofficial operations?

It's not a war so much as a reorganization. And for every action, there's a reaction. In your initial post you pointed out that many of these changes were not in the long term best interests of these schools. 10 years from now, who knows what kinds of accommodations will be made?

I just don't have such a bleak outlook.

[Erik P Conard]

your interesting reply is certainly welcome, and we have, indeed,
moved away from the elite fifteen member chapters to some huge
ones in the south, to some less than huge elsewhere.
We might have to move away from the campus setting due to the
skyrocketing real estate costs.
And legislatures are now considering cuttin' loose many of the state U's in favor of private enterprise, amother situation worth watching and it might spell disaster for some.
The new groups, multi-cultural, co-ed, traditionally non-collegiate,
ethnic, semi-social...often operating without a house or even a
permanent meeting place...they bring to us a totally different perspective...how much fraternalism or brotherhood is up for each
of us to decide.
The opening of the doors to virtually anyone who can fog a mirror is interesting in that it has taken away a lot of the prestige of the
degree. Having conferred several thousand Associate degrees to
many who would not, likely, pass an old-time English proficiency exam, I scratch my pate...at times...wondering if it is worth the investment. I know my MA and PhD's were poor returns...if that
is why I pursued 'em.
Would certainly bear watching and change...it is a-comin.' What
other predictions, opinions, out there?

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by Erik P Conard

The opening of the doors to virtually anyone who can fog a mirror is interesting in that it has taken away a lot of the prestige of the
degree. Having conferred several thousand Associate degrees to
many who would not, likely, pass an old-time English proficiency exam, I scratch my pate...at times...wondering if it is worth the investment.

I don't see the point of your comments. So we now have many more people pursuing some type of higher education nowadays? Maybe you haven't noticed, but many Associate degrees train people in trades and other vital service-sector jobs. My father has an Associate degree and I think that what you are saying is quite discrimnatory. I know many fine, upstanding, intelligent people who have obtained Associate degrees. If you feel that providing these people with educational opportunities harms our traditional University system rather than strengthening them and providing a better educated workforce, I am a bit shocked. And I certainly don't see why that hurts the Greek system... Why shouldn't people have the opportunity to receive 2-year degrees or to form new types of Greek organizations? Rather than restricting, let's open things up!

[Kevin]

Originally posted by breathesgelatin
I don't see the point of your comments. So we now have many more people pursuing some type of higher education nowadays? Maybe you haven't noticed, but many Associate degrees train people in trades and other vital service-sector jobs. My father has an Associate degree and I think that what you are saying is quite discrimnatory. I know many fine, upstanding, intelligent people who have obtained Associate degrees. If you feel that providing these people with educational opportunities harms our traditional University system rather than strengthening them and providing a better educated workforce, I am a bit shocked. And I certainly don't see why that hurts the Greek system... Why shouldn't people have the opportunity to receive 2-year degrees or to form new types of Greek organizations? Rather than restricting, let's open things up!

You think that W&L is going to open things up anytime soon?

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by ktsnake
You think that W&L is going to open things up anytime soon?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

That's so funny--actually I'm probably one of the leading liberals/feminists/diversity promoters on campus, so your point is well taken!

I'll take a mini-hijack and then we'll get back on track:

--We have finally acheived a 50-50 male-female ratio
--We did start and maintain a strong NPC system, and will probably be expanding in the next 2-3 years
--There is a lot of interest in an NPHC sorority, but we just don't have the numbers of women yet. However, in the next 10 years or so I can't imagine that we won't get enough people for a chapter of either an NPHC or a MCGLO chapter.
--There are a lot of diversity initiatives and we're getting more diverse every year. We have LOTS of international students and more and more American minority students every year.
--One thing I will proudly say for us is that we have done a MUCH better job than most hardcore southern Greek schools in integrating our system. Minority and international students easily receive bids at most houses.

In short, W&L is changing for the better every day.

[/hijack]

[Rudey]

Originally posted by breathesgelatin
I don't see the point of your comments. So we now have many more people pursuing some type of higher education nowadays? Maybe you haven't noticed, but many Associate degrees train people in trades and other vital service-sector jobs. My father has an Associate degree and I think that what you are saying is quite discrimnatory. I know many fine, upstanding, intelligent people who have obtained Associate degrees. If you feel that providing these people with educational opportunities harms our traditional University system rather than strengthening them and providing a better educated workforce, I am a bit shocked. And I certainly don't see why that hurts the Greek system... Why shouldn't people have the opportunity to receive 2-year degrees or to form new types of Greek organizations? Rather than restricting, let's open things up!

People in 2 year degree programs are most likely either not the smartest or not the most motivated, with a high stress on most likely.

People who are not the smartest nor the most most motivated tend to be higher risks, with a high stress on tend to be.

Fraternities with a higher risk...well there really is no reason to stress the reality here.

Erik, I think in the past couple years at the most maybe 1-3 chapters have closed and in the last 4 I would say 20 chapters have become established for us at AEPi. We aren't the biggest, mostly determined by our reason for existence, and hence have avoided the risk that most GLOs face due to size.

-Rudey

[Erik P Conard]

Some of you folks have had an oar out of the water for some time now...let me enlighten you...as regards the juco fraternity...
The two year college, aka junior college, now softened to community college...has had Greeks...even NIC greeks.
Sig Ep, TKE, Sig Pi, perhaps others. Most have been miserable
failures...short time in group, house or not, attrition, what about
part time students? Just a few problems they faced.
A survey was made by many NIC groups, including my own, TKE,
and this was about thirty years ago. I was a community college
dean from 1970-76. The problem of transferring to the four year
school was also an issue...would they take or not take 'em?
It just did not work out. One PA school, one TX school, Miami-Dade and Broward in FL were some places with NIC chapters, and
there is the unique one...Vincennes...where Sigma Pi was founded and this seems to be an exception...anybody know how
that has fared?
The junior college fraternity...has been tossed about for over fifty
years...and a negative opinion emerged as to efficacy.
This is not to say that the Associate Degree...originally simply the
junior division of the University of Chicago...does not have use. But do not try to equate it with a baccalaureate one...in no way
shape or form does it parallel...no way. It is, though, a favored
route for athletes to play a coupla years, get thru the junior division and transfer to a four year school and play for a couple of
years...but that's another matter...
'course, some might consider auctioneering schools, cosmetology
centers, cybernetic greeks...gosh, it is wide open...isn't it?

[33girl]

Erik -

Which PA school are you talking about? An independent community college or a branch of Pitt or Penn State?

Penn State Altoona has recently opened for NPC expansion and I believe they've had IFC groups for a while now - they are going to more of a 4 year college rather than a 2 year branch (same as Penn State Behrend). I believe there is also a local fraternity that has chapters at all the Penn State branches and then they come together when they get to Main....now this was explained to me by a guy in a bar so don't take it as gospel.

Mr. 33 went to the Art Institute here and he said there was a "fraternity" called Alpha Rho Tau (har) but it wasn't a serious thing.

[Erik P Conard]

I do not purport to badmouth the community college or the
movement of the junior colleges...often high school extensions
who got some state monies and began to build empires.
These institutions, however, do not lend themselves to the NIC
type fraternity. But, have at it, give charters as you see fit. I am
simply saying that it is a different institution altogether, and like
the technical schools...everyone seems to be out of breath about
"degrees" You can buy all kinds of degrees, all the way to the
fake PhD. The Universities of Phoenix and their ilk are a far cry from the typical institutions we discuss on Greek Chat. You can get a Master's in Air Conditioning. You can get a bachelor's from
Ringling Bros Clown School in FL (Phi Delt chartered here!). We
have ventured far from the old ivied campus and Mr. Chips. But
we are talking apples and oranges.
I enabled many to get mobility, say in law enforcement, while I was the Dean of Instruction at a Community College in Kansas.
I helped recruit athletes. I developed credit and non-credit courses, transferable ones and some not. This is not to say any
of these people were stupid or inferior. It was simply a different
means of continuing education--offered to a wider clientele.
I will say, as a faculty member of both a Big 10 and a Big 8 U that
the night courses and extension ones did NOT have the stringent
expectations...politics, funding, growth, all played a part in these
and we were (and are yet) hypocrites simply trying to survive.
There is a radical difference between a bachelor's in Spanish at
the old teachers' college and the same at Yale...you know that.
The extensions in PA you refer to are now 4-year ones. TKE has
a chapter at Behrend. But it is a helleva far cry from Penn State
at State College. History of fraternities has been broached in
previous postings. The system has undergone a face lift and
Delta Psi (St. A), KA Society, Zete, Delta Phi etc...some of the conservative old line NICs have seen much change. Some of
them have gone co-ed, some simply died, and some are hanging
on. But the Greek Site here...generally...deals with the fraternity
with a house, perhaps not, but with a traditional perspective.
Let us not get all bent out of shape over these matters, they are
vastly different...the juco from the U....

[IheartAphi]

I just don't see fraternities and sororities doing well at community colleges in NC. The turn over is much too fast and most people in NC community schools are not economically in the best shape (not being ugly, just a general realization). They also are typically students that have to put more effort.
However, NCSU has two year degree programs in the Agriculture School. They can join greek organizations, I think most stick to Farmhouse and AGR though.

[33girl]

Behrend's been a 4 year school for quite a while (30 years to be exact) - it's NOT a branch like New Ken or DuBois. I believe it has some specialized programs that the Main campus doesn't offer. No it isn't as big as Main, but not everyone wants to go to a school that size.

I agree that community colleges or junior colleges would not be good places to have a fraternity - too much turnover - but that really doesn't have thing one to do w/ Behrend.

[jhujenn]

there is the unique one...Vincennes...where Sigma Pi was founded and this seems to be an exception...anybody know how
that has fared?

I"m from about 15 minutes from Vincennes. The Sigma Pi chapter there from my perception is remaining strong. They built an new house within the last ten years and have made other improvements to the area. From what I understand, they are the only national fraternity there, but VU does have local fraternities and sororities. I didn't know for the longest time that Sigma Pi was national, but I bailed for DC right after high school so I didn't get that joyful 2 years at VU like most of my high school classmates.

By the way VU= Vincennes University, yes it's a two year school, but they have called it a university for as long as I can remember.

[Erik P Conard]

thank you, JHUJENN, for your report on Vincennes U, a two year
school in Indiana. This is "mecca" for Sigma Pi, a very successful
NIC fraternity, who has made go of it in this school. It is poignant in that few others have been so lucky. And to have built a house, that is marvelous! Sig Pi...may you thrive at Vincennes!

[PhiPsiRuss]

Phi Psi's chapter retention rate has become quite good. We've lost 2 chapters in the last 5 years, one of which is now being recolonized. We've added 15 chapters and colonies in this time.

There is no national crisis for greeks at this time. Some national GLOs may be struggling, but if so, that's there own fault (and I'm not aware of any that are.)