The Third Wave...the feminist movement

[miss priss]

Several questions...

1. Are you a feminist? If so, are you apart of the third wave movement?

2. Do you embrace words like girl, bitch, slut or cunt?

3. Why is competition so difficult for women who see themselves as feminists?

4. Are we, as women, making real progress toward socio-economic equality?

5. Do you find youself nonplussed after "women's group" meetings, wondering why they feel vaguely like a waste of time? (Women's group can refer to church groups, sororities, social groups, etc.---for me, nothing specific)

6. To my (greek) sisterfriends and brothers, do you feel that your organization is playing a productive role in the feminist movement outside of the targets and programs that you have in place? How? Or how do you (or how can we help you) plan to make it better?

[REIKI]

No, I am not a feminist. I don't quite understand the agenda or core goals of the feminist movement. I have studied about some feminists and understand their individual initiatives to achieve gender equality (i.e., equal recognition/pay within their field, attention to social and political issues that adversely affect women) but I don't get the whole "movement" thing and don't quite understand what it is they have achieved.

I would never embrace the words girl, bitch, slut.., or cunt for any reason, because they are historically derogatory terms, are psychologically damaging, and are unnecessary terms for anyone with an adult vocabulary to use.

Women who identify themselves as feminists are sometimes considered imbalanced because, in my opinion, social/economic/political gender equity cannot be achieved by debasing and devaluing men, and that is what I think of when I think of a feminist -- someone who wants to flip the script on men, which would create just as much social dysfunction. If feminists see life as a competition, then maybe that's the problem, because in my opinion, there shouldn't be a competition between the sexes.

I don't belong to any women’s groups so I don't know if feminist efforts have actually resulted in lasting changes, but it is likely that it will be a long time before there is obvious gender equity. It is obvious that in arenas and positions of great impact and importance, equity is severely lacking.

[Choo-ChooAKA]

I think, miss priss, that before you ask women if they call themselves feminists, you should first define feminism. There are many myths floating around as to exactly what feminism is and, unfortunately, many of those myths scare away women who are in deed, action, and thought, true feminists. Unfortunately, "feminism" as a theory has gained the reputation of being a group of "bully broads" who hate men. WRONG!!! I most certainly call myself a feminist because I feel men and women are equal and are entitled to the same rights and priveleges. Period.

To be more specific, I call myself a black feminist (which is a far different group with far different aims than those of white feminists). A "Third Wave Feminist?" I'm not very familiar with this term and am reticent to say yay or nay based upon hearsay, but, if what I hear about this third wave feminism, that it is along the lines of Courtney Love's Riot Girl ilk, then, no, I do not wish to align myself with these women.

What have feminists achieved, REIKI? THE RIGHT TO VOTE, FOR ONE. Healthcare rights and initiatives for women, equality in the workplace, equal access to education, etc., etc. I think at one point, in a zealous fury, the IRA seemed to think that taking care of home was no longer an admirable or acceptable line of work for women. However, we learn as we go, and there is room for every type of woman who is interested in equality under the umbrella of feminism.

Unfortunately, the white female feminist agenda that is at the forefront of the feminist movement tends to alienate black women whose role in society and battle for equality are very, very different from those of white women. While white feminists were fighting to escape the apathetic confines of the house wife and earn a place in the workplace (BTW, they were the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action policies, and still are.); while they were bi%#*ing and whining about being "stuck" in the house, Black feminist agendas were much deeper and more enlightened (read Michelle Wallace, Alice Walker, Audre Lorde). Black and white feminist views are still markedly different, which is why you probably won't see many black feminists among this "third wave." White women's issues seem silly to many a black woman. As Black women have ALWAYS known all too well, staying home and concentrating solely on one's family is a luxury.


In fact, you won't find too many black feminists, period. Those few black women who do label ourselves as feminists must withstand the ridicule of our own communities as man-bashers/haters and lesbians; I am neither of these. I can love me some black man and still want to see myself as an equal. What's wrong with that? Couples form partnerships, however they form them, and they figure out a way to make them work. I don't care whether the man makes the decisions on one front and the woman on another, or the man works and the woman takes care of the household. Working together is the key, and a woman's role within a man/woman relationship doesn't make her a feminist or not a feminist. I have 2 friends who are stay-at-home moms and they are feminists!

OK, now, for your questions:

1. Answered above.

2. No, I don't embrace profanity.

3. Be more specific. I don't understand this question.

4. Umm, as Black women. YES.

5. The only "women's group" meetings I go to are Sorority meetings, and, no, I don't feel nonplussed. I feel invigorated. Be more specific about which women's groups you are referring to.

6. My Sorority is playing a productive role in the feminist movement inside of the targets and programs it has in place. What do you mean by "outside." ALL of our targets support feminist theory (equality for women) in some way or another.

[miss priss]

First CC and Reiki, thanks for responding.... In a rush to do my posting, I forgot to give you a definition for "feminism". (Mind you, I am taking a course in this.) These were questions posed in class and I wanted a different perspective. As for question #3, I want to know if you feel that when women show agression are we slighted in terms of positions of power and is there a way for feminists to address the issue of female power and teach girls to be competitive and not feel uncomfortable about it? Lastly, I notice that each of the D-9 has targets and goals. Do you feel that there are other "issues" that need to be addressed outside of the targets or focuses you have in place or if those goals your organization (whether it's a greek-lettered organization or not) is targeting encompasses other feminist agendas like the inequalities that the disabled/LGBT/black/latino/etc. communities face?


The following tripartite definition is from the soc.feminism FAQ file (http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/feminism/info.html):

1. The belief that women and men are, and have been, treated
differently by our society, and that women have frequently
and systematically been unable to participate fully in all
social arenas and institutions.
2. A desire to change that situation.
3. That this gives a "new" point-of-view on society, when
eliminating old assumptions about why things are the way
they are, and looking at it from the perspective that women
are not inferior and men are not "the norm."

"The coining of the phrase "Third Wave" often gets credited to 90's feminists (the authors of Manifesta, for instance) indeed it was first used in the 70's by women of color re: the feminist movement at that time and the need to include the voices and concerns of non-white middle class women." research.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/wavemore.html


Sidebar: CC Could you define to me in your own words what "black feminism" is to you? Thanks
Peace.

[Senusret I]

Choo-Choo,

Have you heard the term "womanist" before?

[Choo-ChooAKA]

Miss Priss: since I was so wrong about what the "Third Wave Movement" is, I must retract what I said before and say that I would align myself with this "Third Wave." In fact, I suppose this is what Black Feminism was all about - trying to bring to the forefront of the Women's movement issues that are broader and "include concerns of non-white middle class women." (as you so succinctly put it)

Dardenr: yes, I've heard the term, but could you define it for me? Also, why do you ask?

[Senusret I]

It's basically black feminism....I am reading a book called "Black Like Us: A Century of Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual African American Fiction" and the opening essays for each section are really informative. Here's what it says about womanism:

"Concurrently [to the reproductive rights movement or the 70's], a broad black feminist effort was under way to make all liberation movements more responsive to the experiences and needs of all black women, including black lesbians. Their arguments for inclusiveness were directed not only at black antiracism; they targeted feminism as well, pushing feminists to articulate a conception of women's equality that was more all-encompassing in terms of race, sexual orientation, and class. The purpose was to make feminism more responsive to all women -- not only middle- and upper-class white heterosexuals. To this end, Alice Walker coined the term "womanism," introducing it in the preface to In Search of Our Mothers' Gardens: Womanist Prose (1983). Her aim was to racialize not only feminism but the very notion of womanhood itself..."

It goes on. I was just asking because it's very interesting to me, and an underdiscussed aspect of black social history.

[Choo-ChooAKA]

Yes, it is very interesting. Does it focus only on Black Lesbians within the feminist movement, or all Black women? IMHO, I think one of the reasons the Black feminist movement has never taken shape in the manner it needs to is because many heterosexual black women do not want to closely align themselves with Lesbians and gays. I know, this seems uninformed and even ignorant, but, I mean, most of the women at the forefront of the "white" feminist movement were not Lesbians (I don't think) and therefore gained grassroots support from a broad spectrum of people - not just lesbian women.

Just because I'm a feminist, I don't want people to look at me askance and automatically label me a Lesbian. Because ignorance is prevalent, I sometimes wish (and maybe this is falling right into the pit of ignorance) that the Lesbian movement wasn't so closely connected to Black feminism. I mean, as it is, it seems that the only people brave enough to call themselves Black feminists also happen to be Lesbian. Although I greatly admire these brave women who lead the charge, as a Black non-lesbian feminist, sometimes I feel in the minority outside of my own family.

[Senusret I]

Womanism is inclusive of all women of color. I really don't know much about it, or feminism, beyond that.

[miss priss]

Hmmmm.

So who do you think at this present time leads AA (and non-AA) for social change in the feminist movement. AND....Does the policies that are in place now still effective in our "goals" as (AA) women or should we include the needs of AA women?

Are our goals and needs the same?

I like this (quoted from Reiki) (Reiki nothing against you)
a feminist -- someone who wants to flip the script on men
lol
I think I flip the script often....lol

Oh BTW, Men, how can you or your organization play a more viable role in the leveling of the socio-economic staircase that women climb?