Christians in the club?!?

[iceandivy]

I just wonder....
Is it okay for Chrisitians to go to the club where there is drinking, smoking, lude dancing, and other vices, if they are not ministering to those in attendance?

[AKA2D '91]

Interesting question/assessement.

To play the devil's advocate:
Is it okay for Christians to sit in church shunning attendees they don't know? Coming down on you because you sat in their "seat"? Judging you because you came to church dressed as some would call "inappropriately", but that was the only thing the person possessed. THIS IS BEING DONE IN THE CHURCH.

Christians on the job:
Once they leave church and go to work on Monday, the last thing on their minds is ministering to anyone. Notably, they are the most messiest, heathens (sp?) around. Always causing confusion, etc.

[AKA_Monet]

Ever hear of the water into wine miracle at a wedding in Cannan?

Who was the tax collecting disciple?

What is up with the woman at the well?

How did Christ meet Mary Magdelene?

[iceandivy]

Is it okay for a Christian to go get his/her party on at the club?
Dance... etc. Not necessarily drink and smoke, but definitely not there to spread the gospel.... Just there to have a good time. How do people, or other Christians look at that?

[Paradise359]

Christians are not Christ but somehow always get confused as such. Being a Christain does not make you perfect. But we are held to a higher standard than other religions who teach the same basic things. This always baffels me. Only God can say what he deems wrong or not, but often it's man who sets the rules that we "break".

I say all that to say that I think it's more so what you do at the club or how you handle yourself or how you dress. I'm away from home for months at a time & sometimes I just want to go to the club just to hear music from home. Or I can dance a certain way that out of context can seem sultry, but in my culture this is they way you dance to such music. So it depends. But I don't think just being in a club is sinful and will send me to hell lol. I'd think I'd need to do more than that!
Cause I can be sinful & full of Satan anywhere or I can be Christ-like anywhere.

[RedMusiq4U]

You know this is a hard question and I'm sure people have their different interpretations of what they think but look at this way.....If you're one of those people who shout and testify and claim that you're on-fire-for-the-Lord on Sunday and you turn around Monday-Saturday droppin-it-like-it's-hot and getting tipsy in the club then you really need to have the Pastor lay hands on you for being the biggest hypocrite in Church(can I get an AMEN). I don't see anything wrong with going to a club or any other place to have good, quality, safe fun without partaking in the drinking, sexually charged dancing, drugs and whatever other sin maybe lurking in the shadows, just be careful. It's all about the way you carry yourself, if you have God in your heart everywhere you go people will see it and be amazed, on that note you can find other ways of entertaining yourself and others without going to a club. I'm not the most sanctified person or the most knowledgable about the BIble but I do know that if your spirit says that the environment that you're in is bad then listen to it and leave, it won't lead you wrong. My advice to you is just be wise and make the best decision on what you decide to do to have fun.

[Conskeeted7]

Being Greek, this question holds a particular interest to me because I used to get lots of bad looks when I would tell a fellow Christian that I was going to a party to support my Sorors or another Greek function.

However, I believe that if you are a hypocrite or just not sincere in your walk with the Lord, then it won't take you going to the club for indiscretions to show. They can happen anytime and anyplace. It's a matter of how you carry yourself, the language you use, and other things. Also, if I am at a party or club and things get out of hand, I know when it is time to go. But just because you enjoy dancing does not mean that you have to go to the club and take part of whatever else is going on that is not in line with your beliefs.

I love dancing and in my profession, there are times when I have to go to a club or concert that we are promoting. I know how to control myself and I know what my convictions are.

However, if there were weaknesses I had, such as becoming drunk or using drugs, then I wouldn't put myself in a position where I'd be tested. But that's another case.

[AKA_Monet]

Hey some folks treat the Church like a club, too...

At least when you know your at a club you are liable to see just about any kind of indiscretion... Your expections are very little...

But when your at Church, praisin' the Lord for the remission of all your sins, you don't expect to see folks banging on and gettin' grooves on, like hot budda pop cowrn... However, the Devil goes to Church too... And he knows the Bible better than any one of us put together...

Isn't that like having once clean dogs and pigs turning around and eating their own vomit?

Ironically, if you want to get rid of lusers at the club, ask them to take you to their church the next day... Usually, that skurrs them... Then you know what they were lookin' fo...

[enlightenment06]

I'm not a Christian, but doesn't it say in the Bible "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?

I think this is a beautiful philosophy. Don't judge other lest ye be judged

[Professor]

I've been in revival this week and so I'm on fire right now!!!!

I don't like these type of questions. Folk on this side of Zion need to work on personal relationships with God and not worry about what others think.

Last night the guest pastors said sin starts way before the act. He said sin starts when one has to make a choice between right and wrong. He says our walk with Christ should increase day by day and our actions should be Christ like without thought. Personally, I liked the comment that he made "One should pray asking God to help us handle situations we know that we are not ready and can't deal with as opposed to praying after we find ourselves in a situations . . . pray that we don't get into any moment of weakness."

[De6]

Well, I asked one of ministers if it was ok for me to go to school dances and all of that good stuff. He said that seeing that I am young and still in high school, he does NOT see why I can't do these things. BUT, I MUST NOT participate in the drinking, smoking, and other ungodly activity. It is ALL about your motive. If you go to have FUN,then, I do NOT see anything wrong with it. But, if you go to do all kinds of ungodly things then, there is something wrong,if you are suppose to be a CHRISTIAN. I hoped this helped.

[Diva_01]

Oh boy....


My opinion is that it's all your choice. As long as you know what your relationship with is, it's ok.

[Eclipse]

This is a good question that I think causes a lot of sincere Christians some pause. I think it is good that you are thinking about this.

There is a verse in the bible that talks (I'll have to look it up--can't remember exactly where right now) about clean and unclean meat. If you remember, the Old Testament--especially in Leviticus, spends some tme talking about all of the things that are "unclean" for a man to do. This is why Jewish people and some Christians who are still closely alligned to the old Testament (SDA for example) don't eat pork and shellfish. Well, of course, Jesus came for the remission of our sins and did away with all of the "stuff" we were trying to do to be pleasing in God's eyes (which we couldn't do anyway). As a result, there is now no such think as "unclean" meat to the New Covenant Christian. However, the New Testament does say that we as Christians are not do any thing that causes a man to stumble or to not open his/her heart to the Holy Spirit. As I heard one minister say, that means you cannot be eating smothered pork chops and BBQ ribs in the face of a Muslim if you are trying to witness to him! He's not going to "hear" your message, because of what he will preceive as your ungodly habits (eating pork). ((Whew--I'm getting there, I promise--just stick with me! )) So, what does this mean to the Christian who just likes to dance? I think the question to ask is:

Does this compromise my witness to none believers?

Different folks are going to have different levels of conviction on that matter. I know a minister (mine to be exact) who says, while he knows the Bible does not prohibit Christians from drinking (only from getting drunk), he has been convicted to not even be around folks that are drinking unless he is ministering to him. He went to a friend's birthday party in a public resturant and they had a champagne toast and he left the room. He didn't even want to give the appearance of drinking because he didn't want people to burn up the phone lines saying "girl, guess who I say at so and so getting his DRANK on? That pastor over at that church! Girl, I KNEW preachers weren't 'bout nothin'. That's why I don't go to church today!"

At the same time, I know a minister who spoke from the Pulpit during a illustration about a trip he took to the Essence Music Festival, and no, he was not there to "minister" he wanted to hear Stevie and Mary J and who ever else like the rest of the folks.

Bottom line you need to read your scripture and see what the Bible has to say about it and then pray and ask the HS to convict you one way or the other. Unlike the Professor, I believe that we as Christians should be concerned about what others think. Look at AKA2D's comment:

Once they leave church and go to work on Monday, the last thing on their minds is ministering to anyone. Notably, they are the most messiest, heathens (sp?) around. Always causing confusion, etc.

Once we say we are Christians we are ASKING to be held to a higher standard. Some folks are going to be looking to see if the conversion was real/makes a difference, others are looking just waiting to see you fall. When I was in Church last Sunday talking to a young lady who had just given her life to Christ, she mentioned that a friend got saved a month or so ago and she had noticed all of these major changes in her life so she wanted to see what was up with that! That's how we should live our lives, in a way that draws other to Christ.

Last point, I find it interesting that out of all of the posts on this thread, only one tried to quote scripture in their response and that was from a self-identified non-Chrisian! Ultimately, it does not matter what I (or anyone else) think about Christians and clubs, it matters what God thinks! And let me go and look up that scripture before I look like a hypocrite!

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by Eclipse
This is a good question that I think causes a lot of sincere And let me go and look up that scripture before I look like a hypocrite!

O.k. As I started to read the scripture, I realized I needed to print the entire chapter to give the full context. I'm printing in the NIV because the language is easier to understand, but if you are interested in reading another version, go to www.biblegateway.com They have multiple versions of the bible there.

I think we can replace food with "da club" and get the same point.

ROMANS 14

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[1] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[2] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

[Blackwatch]

These questions cause a lot of conflict in churches I think because we as Christans are affraid of relativism, looking at what is the right thing to do in different situations. Most people look at relativism from the post-modern view (what is right for you may not be right for me) which is not what scripture teaches. Scripture I think does teach that we ought to consider the context in many instances when we choose the right (or ethical) thing to do. I think most objections to the club issue are based upon 3 principles, the "Hurt witness" principle (or leading others astray), the ungodly acts principle (dancing, club music and drinking are ungodly) and the self temptation principle (which says that if you think that it is wrong, why do it, whether it is actually wrong or not). I think that all three principles are valid, but we have to examine the scriptures responsibly and critically to glean the truth about them for our lives and our time. Let's do this (as briefly as Blackwatch can )

In 1 Cor. 8, Paul gives the meat offered up to idols analogy where he states explicitedly that people will become offended by seeing a believer eating meats offered up to idols, even though"...food will not bring us closer to God. Refusing to eat does not make us less pleasing to God, and eating does not make us better in God's sight" (vs.9 NCV). He goes on to state that the weak believer could fall into sin because he will see you eat the meat in the temple and eat the meat himself while thinking it was wrong to do so. In other words, you sin against Christ because you lead a weaker believer (in this context weaker faith due to lack of knowledge) to do something that they feel is wrong (cf. vs. 12). The issue here is not that eating meat offered to idols is ultimate, everytime sin, but that the context (the weaker believer due to lack of knowledge) causes the eating of the meat to lead a weak believer to sin against their own conscience.

Now, as general principle in responsible Biblical interpretation, we have to understand the context of the day and of our time to see if the lesson in the scripture is applicable. In our time, the "club hoppin" is offered by many to be akin to "eating meat offered up to idols". The "Hurt Witness" principle looses it's muster here. In the club, a non-believer may not be concened with the religious ministry of the believers there. Also, the 1 Cor. 8 story is about weaker believers and stronger believers, not non-believers. And besides, who are we as believers to allow non-believers to tell us what we should be doing? The non-believer question is addressed in chapter 10.

In 1 Cor. 10:25-32 Paul talks about the meat eating thing in front of unbelievers. He again urges us not to do anything that would lead people to think that we are doing something wrong. So is Paul saying here that we should live our lives based on the conscience of someone else? I think that Paul answers this question in vs. 31 by saying that you should do all things to the glory of God. So how could we go to the club in the Glory of God? By being the "light" of the club so to speak. In Chapter 8, Paul makes a distinction between strong and weak believers due to knowledge. What separates believers from non-believers is the level of knowledge and understanding due to how we respond to the Gospel when we are confronted with it. Paul in Romans 1 explains that everyone has an encounter with the Gospel or some form of knowledge of God and therefore "have no excuse for the bad things they do" (1:20, NCV). Even only if it is evidenced in creation (chapter 1 vs 18-23), people have a knowledge of God, and also a knowledge of right or wrong. The believer accepts God's law as truth and believes in the resurrection of Christ as the pennicle of understanding right relaionship with God. The unbeliever denies this truth and sins, not because of what believers do or don't do, but because of lack of right knowledge due to the selfish desire to create right and wrong in their own eyes (vs. 28). Ultimately, if an unbeliever rejects the Gospel, it's not because of what Blackwatch did in a club, but because they refuse to accept the truth of the Gospel that is plain to everyone.

I think that the utimate goal of any believer in being "light" is to enlighten people about truth and righteousness (Just as Jesus did). When are we gonna do the work of ministry and give the people liberating knowledge so that people, all people, can know that "...food will not bring us closer to God. Refusing to eat does not make us less pleasing to God, and eating does not make us better in God's sight" (vs.9 NCV). Dancing in a club should not hurt anyone's faith, unless the conscience is weak due to lack of knowledge. The real answer to this issue lies in the effort to get people from milk to the solid food as the writer of Hebrews tells us about the deeper truths of God (Chapter 5 verse 11-14 & Chapter 6 verses 1-4). We ought to be urging people to learn more of God, rather than quibbling about acts that really don't have a bearing on God in either way.

It ultimately becomes a matter of our conscience, which can be strengthened with knowledge. Since it becomes a matter of conscience, then going to the club can be okay for some believers, but not okay for others, depending upon their own understanding. Societal mores about the "appropriateness" of clubbing, gambling, etc. have to be taken into consideration, but ultimately, society's norms and spiritual growth may become antithetcal. The true work of "evangelism" should be about teaching and right conduct from believers towards non-believers. So examine yourself, continue to grow spiritually, and allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you as an autonomous moral agent in this matter.
Blackwatch!!!!!!