ASC is national (zntke711) everyone

[Dfran]

Zntke711, everyone; I tried to respond to zntke711’s post: re; “ASC GLO forum,” but the string was closed... If I did that, I didn't intend to. If the moderator did it, then I take that to mean ASC is not welcome.

It isn't that I am incapable of understanding the motives for excluding our fraternity from greekchat. We are not a residential fraternity. The only reason ASC is currently listed on greekpages as a 'local' fraternity is that we do not yet fit their definition of 'international' even though international affiliations are inherent in our founding. Our membership, however, is currently national.

ASC is determined not to flaunt tradition in most areas. The founding members are equally determined to ensure that membership in ASC is predicated on traditional fraternal foundations.

That said, even though we have international professional ties doesn't make us international in the GLO sense – not until we are associated with a campus outside the U.S. Until then, we'll remain 'local' as per the greekpages definition.

Where we cross over the line is in not being residential. That is the reason ASC was founded as a GLO, and not a fraternal organization like Odd Fellows or Freemasons. The founding vision is to bring the universal man Socratic academic bond to institutions offering degrees in Intelligence, such as a Master's of Science in Strategic Intelligence (MSSI), and Master's of Science in National Security (MSNS), which are not residential campuses.

The result is that many 'universal men' who are achieving advanced academic goals, are deprived of the Greek traditions - we aim to be the first fraternity to bridge this gap. The impact isn't limited to the cyber campus alone, but extends to many non-residential (in the GLO sense) postgraduate institutions that offer intelligence and national security degrees. Make no mistake; we may be founded at a cyber university, but our focus and our audience is global.

We're closing rapidly on the point of fruition where our existence will become known, not only in online venues, but also at brick and mortar institutions such as I've described above. We're listed on acronymfinder under ASC as the national professional fraternity for intelligence and national security studies, and that is who we are. Once we begin our rush process, membership in ASC will be open to thousands of qualified men at the founding institution alone.

The network resident in that initial audience is profound. All of the institutions I've alluded to are well known to the prospective members, because they are either professionals in the intelligence and national security communities, or professors in the academic study of those communities.

If closing our string was intentional, and greekchat seeks to exclude what will become a vast, prestigious, influential, and in most respects traditional GLO - I would submit that is an oversight, and one that warrants reconsideration.

[ZTAMiami]

DFRAN,

It's still here. It was not deleted:
http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums...threadid=32371

I think what he meant to say was that if you are not part of a conference (ex NIC, NPHC) that John won't allow for an individual forum.

[Tom Earp]

DFRAN,

the main reason you will not get a Thread on greekchat is very simple, you at present a single start up Local who is trying to expand.

Your best bet is to use the Local thread on GC to post and discuss things.

You can explain on that thread what kind of Org you are.

Are you Male/female? GLO, BGLO, LGLO, or MGLO?

I think you come on a site and ask a lot from people who do not know you and what your Organization stands for and what you are trying to do!

I do not expect any negative feed back from you on what I have written, see, I started a local.

I did not expect every one on campus to run to my Fraternity becaus I said so.

So, that is why I ask you those questions. This is a national/worldwide greek site not just a NATIONAL greek site.

The Moderators on greekchat are not ogres, but people who paid their dues buy working with and helping members on this site.

I am the least of one who should have been a Moderator, But, this "John" person had a week moment and added me. Little did he know!

Check the alum thread and find AI who worked very hard to get Initiated into a Greek Org. after they have been out of school for a few years. Hell, they worked just as hared and sweated the outcome just as any Initiated while in clollege person did!

You have to earn befor you desearve.

[Dfran]

Thanks for the input. ZTAMiami: while the thread is still there, it is "closed." I didn't mean to imply that it was deleted.

[Kevin]

Dfran, keep posting about your organization on this board (in the proper area as indicated). I've really enjoyed reading about the evolution of your organization though.

[Dfran]

Tom Earp, Thanks for getting back. I apologize if Greek Life isn't the proper venue. I posted this response here because the other string was closed. I especially don't want to be negative, in any way, really.

I am male, the fraternity is male. The main reason for that is that individuals in our focus group (audience) are married and professional. It would be untoward in most cases for us to be in a coed organization, which, while being professional, are also 'social' in that we're a real brotherhood, and will attend social gatherings. So, we're a GLO, social/professional.

I am asking a lot. All of the founding brothers are acutely aware of that. I've posted before on our vision, and how aware of our unique position we are.

We're very sensitive to, and frankly quite protective of the whole concept and tradition of GLOs. We are not about deviation from that; ASC is about making that fraternal experience available to students at non-traditional campuses. Our 'house' is our community, the community that we will serve through networking, getting the best human resources 'on task.'

I believe in my heart that men will be attracted to ASC, not because I say so, but because of the vision, because there is a vital and unfulfilled niche for this fraternity. Other communities, and sororities will be able to use us a model.

I only tout us as 'national' in response to the idea that we are local. We are local, but our venue is global, and our membership will rapidly expand to that level. At this point in time I am going on to graduate studies at another university, and one of the co-founders is a professor at other universities. The ties to the type of university settings I speak of already reside in our prospective audience.

I acknowledge the challenge, we are only what we do, what we make of our organization is up to us. We are up to the task. Our initiation process will be a challenge as well. 40 days and 40 nights of steep learning curve. It won't be easy. The investment will be its own reward. I became a Master Mason in a like period of time.

At this time we're establishing a private forum through delphifourms. That forum will be exclusive to members and prospective members. If the GLO forums are exclusive then that's probably not the best venue. Here we want our mail read, no doubt there are individuals on this forum who either qualify through study or profession. We hope they are attracted and will consider membership.

V/r "D"

[Tom Earp]

Dfran,

this gives a little more insight on your Organization and I thank you for the return and explanation.

I agree with ktsnake that you need to post updates.

greekchat is not an exclusive thread as there are more than just Social Greeks here. SAI ( Music), I have a neighbot who I have not met yet, APO( Service), of which I am a member are 2 that I can think of off hand!


Post you info on Local and Greek Life, or anything just Greek on Chit Chat.

This may sound harsh, but from looking at your Coat of Arms, it seems a little sinister. If you a proffesional Org., might think about changing it. Of course, I am not sure of what you and you Org. is doing. Sorry, it is not my decision.

[Dfran]

Cool, By coat of arms do you mean the one on our web page? That's our 'shield'. I have the coat of arms. If I knew how to upload it here I would. I'll go over to 'locals' tonight and introduce ourselves, and post updates over there. Thanks for the feedback.

Cryptos Aegis Republic [Cryptic {hidden} Shield of the Republic]: The bat symbolizes passive surveillence, as in Signals Intelligence (SIGINT), while at the same time having an active capability, as in Covert Action (CA). The bat is a time honored spook symbol, like 'the spook' himself, which is like the one on a bottle of Sandman Port, and the Crow, as in "The Old Crows." The crow is a symbol rather exclusive to the Electronic Warfare and Electronic Intelligence communities. It's all good. Spook stuff.

Our coat of arms is far more traditional, although the bat is in one quarter of the sheld. Send me an email, I'd be more that happy to share it.

dfranpelej@msn.com

[Tom Earp]

Dfram, yepper that is what I ment!

Thanx for that info, I find out a little more about you each post.

I look forward to seeing you post and finding out about your progress!

Yes, would enjoy seeing your "Traditional C of A "!

As the founder of the local, I designed everything as I was the only one!

I also wish I could learn how to do the scanning thing to show my Local Badge and Pledge pin.

Well, maybe one of these days!

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Dfran (in two posts)
That said, even though we have international professional ties doesn't make us international in the GLO sense – not until we are associated with a campus outside the U.S. Until then, we'll remain 'local' as per the greekpages definition....

We're listed on acronymfinder under ASC as the national professional fraternity for intelligence and national security studies, and that is who we are....

I am male, the fraternity is male. The main reason for that is that individuals in our focus group (audience) are married and professional. It would be untoward in most cases for us to be in a coed organization, which, while being professional, are also 'social' in that we're a real brotherhood, and will attend social gatherings. So, we're a GLO, social/professional.

Dfran, just a heads up. This is a generalization, but Title IX prohibits educational institutions from discriminating on the basis of sex or allowing discrimination on the basis of sex. Failure to abide by this prohibition puts the educational institution in jeopardy of losing federal funds, including financial aid for students. An exception is made for student organizations that are social in nature.

What this means for GLOs is that Title IX requires professional fraternities to be co-ed if they want to have college or university recognition. The reasoning is that, because the GLO has the purpose of furthering the professional development of its members, that opportunity must be available to males and females alike. Unless an educational institution is going to be completely free of federal aid, the only single-sex GLOs that it can allow are social GLOs. And it is the United Stated Department of Education, not the GLO itself, that makes the call whether the group is "social" or "professional" for the purposes of Title IX.

You may have already thought through this, but I thought I'd throw the idea out to you. Good luck with ASC!!

[Dfran]

Thanks MysticCat81, We are aware of that. We were not aware that it wasn't a self-determination issue.

That said; I assume that the DOE is directing this funding to universities and that the foothold they have regards residency. We are non-residential. I don't know if that will mitigate the situation or not.

It seems to me that there are any number of fraternities that identify themselves by association with a particular field, like I think there is even an Alpha Sigma Chi fraternity out there somewhere that is either a math, or chemical engineering fraternity - something like that.

All that we require from a campus is a venue to announce our existence. No university that I'm aware of, including Catholic schools like AU and Georgetown, can forbid students from fraternal associations that are not residential, such as Freemasonry, which, while ecclesiastic grounds for excommunication from The Church, is not grounds for expulsion from the campus.

ASC's 'association' with the campus regards only the applicability of the IS and NS programs, or, the profession of the student. An undergraduate or postgraduate student earning a degree in International Affairs qualifies for membership, if they are an IS or NS professional: Read as CIA, NSA, DOD, DIA, NSC, NIMA, NRO, State Dept. HUMINT, FBI counterintelligence (CI), DOE CI, etc. This includes civilian contractors in support of the NS infrastructure, and active duty military in specific career patterns: Intelligence, cryptology, PSYOP, deception, and C2W.

So, an ASC member could in theory be a student at any university, anywhere; including overseas, so long as they are citizens of an Allied nation that has NS ties to the U.S. Like the UK, Israel, and so forth, and do not object to pledging allegiance to the U.S. “under God.”

Our desire is that women will stand up a sorority that focuses in the same area.

Sexual orientation is not an issue: intimacy, religion, and politics are taboo official subjects as a matter of mutual respect and fraternal maturity.

In point of fact, ASC can exist completely outside academia, however it is in the best interests of the fraternity, and the academic community that the fraternity focuses on, that these informal associations exist.

Thank you for your input. At some point in the future this may become a contentious issue indeed. But for the time being, we see no conflict of interest, since you won't see ASC listed under "student activities/clubs and organizations" because it will reside with the individual student, and their larger fraternal ties in the either.

[navane]

Hi Dfran,

I applaud you for taking on the challenge of creating an organization which not only caters to a very specific niche, but also defies some of the current definitions of a fraternity.


I for one like ASC's sheild! Yes, it is slightly sinister looking. Nonetheless, it gives off a very powerful psychological impact. The colors are strong and seem to say to me, "We mean business". The bat in flight is a mysterious figure which reminds me of the covert nature of your work. When I see the star it makes me want to think of the "intelligence" aspect of your work. So overall, I could summarize the whole shield with the phrase "Covert intelligence, we mean business".

You have an interesting concept here. I wish you the best of success with your organization.

.....Kelly

[Dfran]

Thanks! That is very close to the meaning of the shield. The Northern Star refers to the orientation of the fraternity to "true north." Charts, maps, the compass, are oriented to the north. It also implies that the bat is stealthy, even when falling out of a star lit night sky. The bat means business, it has both a passive covert capability, and an overt capability. It is a time honored symbol of intelligence activity.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Dfran
Thanks MysticCat81, We are aware of that. We were not aware that it wasn't a self-determination issue.

That said; I assume that the DOE is directing this funding to universities and that the foothold they have regards residency. We are non-residential. I don't know if that will mitigate the situation or not.

Well, the funding issue would go to any federal funding that the educational institution might receive. But if you don't plan on official college/university recognition (which is what I understand you to be saying), then it may not be a problem at all.

And yes, there are social fraternities that have ties to a particular field of study or interest. My own fraternity is one example -- we are a social fraternity for men with an interest in and love for music. Alpha Gamma Rho, FarmHouse and Triangle would be other examples. But so far as I know, most GLOs related to a particular field are professional, not social, GLOs. In any event, sounds like you thought about this, which is all I meant to suggest.

BTW, I like your shield too!

Edited to add:

You might want to check your motto -- Cryptos Aegis Republic -- however. Unless I am mistaken (which is definitely possible), Republic, while derived from Latin (res publica -- public matter or thing), it is not itself a Latin word. And I think cryptos may be a Greek form; cryptic[us] is, I think, the Latin form.

[Dfran]

In fact, all the words in our motto are Greek in origin. Plato coined the term "Republic"; Aegis is the shield of Zeus, and Cryptos is Greek for "Hidden" [secreted]. I'm glad you like it! If anybody ever emails me and looks at our crest they'll notice that we use a Corinthian helmet - well guess what, that's actually Greek in origin as well!

We're re-thinking the risk issue on the basis of your input. The thing is, we're really a social fraternity by our own definition. Where the professional part comes in to play is the exclusion to the requirement to be a student of intelligence or national security studies. Men who have other degrees, such as engineering degrees, but who work in the NS or IS community will qualify.

Our purpose in touting professionalism (the third founding principal) is to focus our membership in the academic study (or professional association/training) of intelligence and national security policy.

It's not all mom and apple pie. In the course of either endeavor: being an intelligence or national security professional, or engaging in the study of those disciplines we come to share in a peculiar knowledge, and a distinct world view.

I think the difference between most of my contemporaries and someone from another academic discipline, who's looking at an intelligence failure for instance, is that while our assessment will be critical, we're more pragmatic about the exigencies behind what took place, and our analysis will tend to derive from that separate view. At the same time, nobody can criticize failed intelligence policy like a spook.

My studies of intelligence led me to this conclusion. I sensed a similar inculcation; not only in my fellow students, but in commonality with my former intelligence colleagues as well, and this led to the focus on IS and NS. Common ground.

While I'm currently retired from that profession and employed in a support role, the pragmatism and stoicism with regard to certain exigencies and realities never left me, and were only enhanced by my advanced studies.

That is the cement that will bind us as brothers: the common experience; the mark that it leaves on you. However, being exposed to and having accepted the influence and weight of a separate historicism does not mean we walk in lockstep. Individuality is the second founding principal of ASC.

This is what we share in comon with the Greek community at large - an appreciation for the fact that there are many sides to any issue, and nothing is written in stone. Anything can be argued - any perception can be assailed. That is why it is so important that our fraternity be Greek in character - because of the Socratic tradition. That not only binds us each other - but to all of you as well.

If it comes down to a contest between social and professional, we are social, because it is brotherhood, solidarity (the first precept) and our common l(academic or professionally derived) experience that defines who we are, and what we're about. The one thing that distinguishes us as Greek is the "universal man" concept: we're all educated. We won't make a man a brother who isn't.

That's not to say there isn't a universe of individuals who don't have, or who are not seeking an academic degree who aren't as "good" or as capable as any of us, regardless of how highly educated we are. It is simply that we respect, fully support, and believe in the precept that membership in a GLO acknowledges the value of education. So, in light of that we limit our membership to one professional field. It's an either/or proposition - but college education is required.

At the end of the day brotherhood is paramount, solidarity is the first principal upon which we are founded and bound. Professionalism (careerism) is third.