Town/Gown Problems go beyond Greek Life...

[DeltAlum]

Interesting to see not much has changed. We were dealing with the same problems and complaints from both sides thirty-five years ago in Athens, Ohio.

Both sides have valid points. These situations are especially difficult in "college towns" like Athens and Tuscaloosa.

TUSCALOOSA, Ala. (Feb. 17) - It's easy to tell Tuscaloosa is a college town.

On shady residential lanes near the University of Alabama campus, swaybacked sofas and overstuffed den chairs sit on front porches, and front yards are full of cars plastered with fraternity and sorority decals.

This scene is just life as usual for college students, but their grown-up neighbors have had enough.

Acting at the request of both university administrators and neighborhood groups, city officials are cracking down on the town's ``Animal House'' style.

The City Council last week passed a law curbing operating hours for all-night bars, and it earlier prohibited the outdoor use of indoor furniture. Now, the council is considering a ban on parking in front yards.

Students complain the city is infringing on their rights, and a council member contends the city may be creating new problems as it tries to stamp out old ones.

``It's become a blue-collar versus white-collar issue,'' said council member Harrison Taylor.

But supporters of the move say they are only trying to tackle problems that have been festering for years and seem to be getting worse as the university's enrollment increases.

``You shouldn't have to live next door to a slob or someone who just doesn't care about the way their property looks,'' said Councilman Kip Tyner, a 1979 Alabama graduate.

The dispute centers on the common problem of how a university and its surrounding community coexist.

The university is Tuscaloosa's economic backbone with some 4,300 employees and more than 19,000 students. The school estimates its economic impact at $1.2 billion annually, with student spending accounting for some $348 million of that.

But there is a downside for the city's nearly 78,000 residents.

The Princeton Review last year rated the Tuscaloosa campus one of the nation's top party schools, and residents have complained for years about the trashy look of neighborhoods overrun with students.

Caroline McMurphy, who shares a house with seven other students, said police have visited twice since last fall complaining about cars parked in the yard, furniture on the porch and garbage on the property.

``He just looked around and said we looked like trailer trash,'' said the 20-year-old sophomore.

Parking on campus is all but impossible, and one of McMurphy's housemates already has gotten a $10 ticket for parking on a sidewalk at their house. ``It's ridiculous,'' she said.

Acting on a request from university administrators, the council agreed to make bars quit serving alcohol by 2 a.m. Monday through Thursday and Saturday, with all-nighters still allowed on Friday. Bars are closed on Sunday.

A law banning the outdoor use of home furniture and appliances takes effect March 1. Violators can be fined as much as $200.

Taylor said making bars close early might lead to a resurgence in ``shot houses,'' or in-home nightclubs. Taylor, whose council district includes mostly minority and lower-income areas, said many people in his area live in old homes with small driveways, and they sometimes have nowhere other than their yard to park.

``We can't punish law-abiding citizens for living in older homes,'' Taylor said.

Council President Jerry Plott cast the lone vote against the outdoor furniture ban, questioning whether government should exert such power over citizens.

Student Elizabeth Sullivan isn't affected by the new rules because she lives in a sorority house, but she worries about her friends who are running up against the homeowner organizations.

``I wonder if these groups are just trying to make it so unpleasant for students that they won't want to live there,'' said Sullivan.

02/17/03 02:47 EST

[valkyrie]

I can sort of see both sides of the issue here, but I have to side with the students.

Instead of complaining about people parking in their yards, why doesn't the town try to do something constructive to provide more parking somehow? Can't people park on the streets? If not, maybe it's time to change that law. Maybe some of these disgruntled neighbors could rent out some of their driveway space for students who live nearby.

Fining people for having indoor furniture outdoors is just stupid. Every college town has rickety old ugly brown plaid upholstered chairs out on the porch. So what. If that's the biggest problem they have, they should be thankful.

If people choose to live in a college town, they need to be a little more open minded and accepting of the atmosphere of a college town. It's going to involve drinking and cars and ugly furniture, and if you can't deal with it, don't live by students. It's like people in Chicago who live next door to a live music venue and then complain about it. Duh!

[texas*princess]

I have to sort of agree with valkyrie.

Although, I'm going to take a far-fetched guess and say maybe some of the older people who are 'complaining' about the way their collegiate neighbors choose to display their furniture, etc., probably lived there long before the collegiate students moved in. Most colliegate students are around for 4-5 years, and I would guess no one would just want to move into a house next to someone who lived like that... at least I wouldn't.

Perhaps the houses the collegiates were living in weren't always like the way they are now with couches on the front porch and 10 cars in the front lawn. Maybe the people who lived there before didn't do that sort of stuff, moved out, and the house got rented to the students who put their rickety old ugly brown plaid upholstered chairs in the front of the house and now the homeowners next door are upset about it. Wouldn't having a neighbor like that lower your own property value if you wanted to move?

I've never been to Alabama though, so I don't know... I'm just taking a guess here.

[FuzzieAlum]

My feeling is that if you move in next to a college, what do you expect? It's like the people back home who move next door to an apple orchard and then complain about the use of pesticides on it!

We're seeing the same thing here around the U of W. Some of the problems are very real, but most of them are not coming from the student population. For example, "The Ave" has gotten dirtier and now has more empty store fronts than just a few years ago - but the big problem is homeless teenage panhandlers. The students don't like this any better than anyone else.

But there are neighbors who complain about party houses, noise, etc. Some of it I can understand - who wants drunk random people puking in your bushes? And plastic proper yard furniture is dirt cheap - there's no excuse for a crappy indoor couch on the porch. Yet I read one resident complaint in a newspaper article there were too many students, behaving or not, in the immediate neighborhood of the university. Isn't one of the hallmarks of any vibrant campus life that student live on or near campus? What does she expect?

[sugar and spice]

Having lived in a college town all my life, I've found this stuff to be pretty common. A lot of families love the fact that a college town brings lots of cultural opportunities/"enlightened attitudes"/etc. into their city without bringing the crime and pollution and all that that would come with living in a bigger city. Most of these families wouldn't even BE living in Madison (or insert the name of the college town of your choice) if the university wasn't here. And yet they complain about the students constantly! I've heard people who live right next to the football stadium (which is one of the most heavily populated-with-students areas there is) complaining about the noise on football Saturdays -- give me a break. If you don't like it, don't live there. The stadium's been there since 1917. Don't try to act like you didn't know what you were getting into.

Madison might be a little different because most of the students live in neighborhoods that are almost entirely student-occupied, so I think there's less of this kind of thing. The student neighborhoods are pretty well staked out, so if a family decides to move into a house on Mifflin Street (a student-dominated area), they know what they're getting into, and if they start complaining about all the students near them they need to just be quiet. The situation isn't like this in all college towns so it might be a little different . . . but still. College towns have college students in them. I don't see why this is so difficult for people to understand.

Of course, in twenty years I'll be on the other side of this issue, so . . .

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Of course, in twenty years I'll be on the other side of this issue, so . . .

I suspect you say that only partly in jest.

The students move on after four or five years, and the "townies" keep paying the taxes and running the businesses which support and in turn are supported by the ever changing student population.

It is a two way street.

As you get older, your tolerance for noise and garbage and questionable behavior gets smaller.

I don't know if there will ever be a solution, but both populations are dependent on each other in many more ways than they want to admit.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
I suspect you say that only partly in jest.

No, I am completely willing to admit that I will probably feel differently in twenty years -- or even ten. But at this point, I have very little sympathy for anyone who moves into a neighborhood of college students and then gets mad when there are couches on the porch. I have the same amount of sympathy for any students who move into a neighborhood primarily composed of families and then are surprised that their neighbors don't appreciate their loud parties and vomiting in the bushes.

And many of these people who are complaining about the students were once students at the very same school themselves -- like the Kip Tyner mentioned in the article. And I'm sure that when Mr. Tyner was an Alabama student, his house didn't look like it should be gracing the cover of House Beautiful either. Another one of those "It was okay for my generation, but I sure don't want my kids doing it" things, I suppose.

[swissmiss04]

Well ,as a UA student, let me comment. Yeah lots of the houses in my neighboorhood look like "trailer trash" and I agree that students should try to be more responsible and clean. But having said that...the realty companies here are F**king pieces of shit. They do nothing but rent houses out till they practically collapse (and some have while occupied!) and they see no problem w/ allowing 8 and 9 people to live in a house that originally should only have about 4 or 5 people in it. And of course there's not a place to park. They supposedly provide garages at some houses but unfortunately they're clogged w/ 30 years worth of other people's shit. I think that if the furniture is well-maintained there isn't a prob but when it's out on the front lawn or out for trash (and attracted rats) it's a huge problem. We're sort of a humid low-lying area and the pests during the summer are horrible. And parking anywhere here is horrible. There's like 5000 more people than there are spots and to make matters worse there's always some sort of event going on that makes parking even more hellacious. Of course those people never get tickets. Our whole university is screwed up. ARRRRRRGH!!!!!!

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by swissmiss04
Our whole university is screwed up. ARRRRRRGH!!!!!!

Honestly, you're not alone. You're describing a lot of schools. As I said in my first post in this thread, the problems haven't changed. I lived in a lot of real dumps in college.

You're right, of course, about the "slum lords," and, of course, the student renters don't really do anything to take care of the places either. I suspect that about 60-75% of all off-campus rental property in America should be condemned.

Parking is a joke almost everywhere, too. I tell my son, who wants to take a car to college next year, that I think I paid more in parking tickets than tuition when I was in school. Colleges keep growing their headcounts, but there is a finite number of parking spaces.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[KillarneyRose]

Just two li'l things to say here:

1. Why in Heaven's name would people keep indoor furniture on their porches? I've never heard of such a thing. Doesn't it get all wet and yucky when there's a storm?

2. My daughters will live in the dorms no matter how much they whine, cry and beg to live elsewhere.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

I saw this problem up close when I lived off campus. My neighbors never had a problem with my housemates and me because we were considerate and polite. When we had parties or mixers, we would inform our neighbors beforehand so they would come to us and not call the police if there was a problem. They appreciated it. If you want to have a good neighbor, you have to be a good neighbor.

I think that the college should have an orientation to teach off campus students how to behave in a way that would reflect well on the college and the student body.

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by Cream
If you want to have a good neighbor, you have to be a good neighbor.

Wonderfully said Cream!

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
Just two li'l things to say here:

2. My daughters will live in the dorms no matter how much they whine, cry and beg to live elsewhere.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with that! I've lived in the dorms for all four years. The landlords around here are all so shady, and the properties they are renting are usually slum-level. I can count on my hand the off-campus places I've seen that I actually consider decent.

[Optimist Prime]

Home owner associations are evil and a cancer on the face of society. I hate the suburbs.

[AchtungBaby80]

Have you all heard about what's going down at UK? Well, last year the city brought in a rule that is supposed to cut down on the number of off-campus parties by designating any property that has had two or more noise violations as a "no party zone." I'm not sure about the details of it because it never affected me (I've lived in the dorms/sorority house the whole time), but there were basically a lot of residents who live near campus that were complaining about having to live next to rowdy, loud college kids. I understand that everyone has the right to peace and quiet, but as someone already said, what do you expect if you move in near a college campus?? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you live in a neighborhood that has a lot of students, it's not going to be as quiet as, say, another neighborhood that houses mostly older people.

And on the issue about off-campus rentals being dumps...ohhhhh, yes! "Dump" is actually a generous term to describe some of the places around here. I know I don't want to pay $350+ per month to live in a house that I wouldn't even want a dog staying in! The dorms look like the Plaza Hotel in comparison.