College Admissions Policy

[PotentialPledge]

Like many of you I have been watching the news and reading the newspaper about the University of Michigan's admission policy. To sum it up an applicant would receive 20 points out of 150 if they were a minority. The president said that Michigan's policy is unconstitutional. So this case is going to the Supreme Court. One of the administration's official said the legal brief they will file will be "narrowly tailored" to condemn racial preference policies at the University of Michigan." My questions to everyone are do you agree or disagree with President Bush? If the Supreme Court says that it is unconstitutional do you think your college will become less diverse?

[PotentialPledge]

and heres a link to an article in the washington post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Jan15.html

[Munchkin03]

I think affirmative action still has its place in American society. The playing fields are still not level, no matter what anyone tries to say. I believe that the AA being practiced at Mich is a little questionable (20 points for being a minority, and only 1 point for a good essay?), but until excellent education at the public level is available to all students, it is still needed for a lot of people.

I go to a private college, which had a history of integrating (on gender and racial bounds) in the early 19th century. So, my school will probably not change its diversity.

[sugar and spice]

I agree -- I think that while giving points for being a minority is definitely not unconstitutional, nor should it be, 20 points out of 150 seems to be a little on the excessive side.

Does anybody have figures on how the other 130 points are divided up?

[PM_Mama00]

I didn't hear about the other points, but I did hear that you got 10 points for a perfect SAT score.

[Munchkin03]

ADMISSIONS CRITERIA
At the University of Michigan, minority undergraduate applicants to the College of Literature, Science and the Arts receive a 20-point bonus on the basis of race out of a 150-point system, which takes into consideration other criteria, including academics. Scholarship athletes, for example, get 20 points. Race is covered in a category called "other factors." The point system includes:


Geography
10 points - Michigan resident
6 points - Underrepresented Michigan county
2 points - Underrepresented state

Alumni
4 points - "Legacy" (parents, step-parents)
1 point - Other (grandparents, siblings, spouses)

Essay
1 point - Outstanding essay (since 1999, 3 points)

Personal achievement
1 point - State
3 points - Regional
5 points - National

Leadership and service
1 point - State
3 points - Regional
5 points - National

Miscellaneous
20 points - Socio-economic disadvantage
20 points - Underrepresented racial-ethnic minority identification or education
5 points - Men in nursing
20 points - Scholarship athlete
20 points - Provost's discretion


Maximum of 40 points and only one option is assigned in the alumni, personal achievement, leadership & service, and miscellaneous categories.


I guess this doesn't account for the purely academic aspects (ie, GPA, test scores).

[DeltAlum]

I think 20 points is excessive.

What still bothers me most, though, about "highly selective" schools like Michigan and Northwestern is that many offer "need only" scholarships and nothing for merit.

That means that over-achieving middle class (or higher) high school students (of all races, by the way) are likely to receive little or no scholaraship money, and end up with huge loans.

What difference does it make it you're accepted and can't afford to attend?

Except, of course, for athletes. NCAA dictates that athletic scholarships MUST be given by at least it's Division One schools.

[Munchkin03]

No one is mentioning that 20 points for being an athlete is pretty excessive.

I have no problem with the highly selective schools giving financial aid based on financial aid only. The Ivy League has been working this way for fifty years, and the applications keep on coming in--even despite the fact that there is no aid based on academic or athletic merit. For years, there have been over-achieving working-class students who can't afford to attend the colleges of their choice. Does it only become a tragedy when it's middle to upper-middle class students who have to make difficult choices?

[Shark In Skirt]

The UC system in California *claims* that it does not participate in affirmative action...

But I truly don't believe that it's true. An ex-boyfriend of mine marked that he's "Hispanic" on his application, even though he's not. I have far more extracurricular activities, a higher GPA, higher SAT I and SAT II scores and didn't get into half of the UCs he got into.

It's ridiculous. Anybody who goes to a UC knows that exceptions are being made. We've all met a students in our classes and in our dorms that were awarded a spot due to their race.

It's impossible to get into a UC these days if you're white or Asian unless your GPA is a good 2.0 points higher than that of other miniorities' who are admitted.

It's unfair, its unconstitutional, and whether or not its an official mandate, it needs to stop happening, especially in the public school system.

What the hell happened to admission based on MERIT?!!

XOXO,
Annie.

[texas*princess]

I agree with Munchkin03 on the athlete thing. So what if you can play sports? If it's excessive to give 20 points b/c it's an 'underrepresnted minority' I'd say it's excessive for sports too-- think about it.. applicants only get 5 points for achieving something acadmically on a NATIONAL level...

I personally don't even know why they ask for race on an application in the first place. Sure it's probably good to know for statistics stuff, but seriously.... there is no good reason for it .... just my .02~

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
No one is mentioning that 20 points for being an athlete is pretty excessive.

Does it only become a tragedy when it's middle to upper-middle class students who have to make difficult choices?

I agree with you point on the athletic points -- and nearly mentioned it, but decided it wasn't the subject of the thread. But that's OK -- I probably should have.

You're also right on the Ivy's etc. My problem is that it keeps middle class, etc. kids out. Is that a tragedy? Probably not.

Our son was/is a National Merit Scholar and student body VP with lots of community service, extracurriculars etc. One of his girl friends (not girlfriend, if you understand) had the same (actually identical) test scores, etc. She wasn't nearly as active school and community wise.

Her father is wealthy and she's going to Harvard. I'm not, and our son is going to Oklahoma on a nearly full academic ride. Nothing wrong with Oklahoma -- it's a wonderful school, and he wasn't particularly interested in Harvard. BUT, he was interested in Northwestern, and they offered him $39,000 per year of loans.

My point is simply that, unless you want your kids saddled with big loans, here is a "super student" who can't get a scholarship at a highly selective school because of my income.

So, the message that sends to me is, "Why try so hard in high school?"

Finally, I'm not suggesting that scholarships should all be merit based either. I think there should be some of each.

[S_A_I]

First of all, please don't flame me.

Ok, having said that . . .

I agree with the president. I think the idea behind affirmative action is a good one - to create equality. However, is it 'equal' that because my skin is white and someone else's is a little darker that they get 20 extra points and I get nothing? If I were to get extra points because my skin is white, it would create a huge controversy!

I don't think it's right that two equally qualified people can apply and interview for a job but because one person's skin color is darker than the other's and the company needs more minority people, the first person gets the job.

Like I said, the idea behind affirmative action is a good one. I just think that it can very easily work against all involved. I have nothing against minorities - I have some really good friends who are and, ironically, they agree with me.

[valkyrie]

I think this is a difficult issue. But first, I have to say that I don't understand why the Bush administration decided to submit a brief in the Supreme Court case. Is it common for presidential administrations to take a position in a pending Supreme Court case and to go so far as to submit a brief? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm just not aware of this ever happening. It doesn't seem to me that it is the President's job to get involved with Supreme Court cases, and I actually find it somewhat disturbing.

On the topic itself, I'm torn. I'm torn because as a white woman, it did piss me off when I didn't get a job and someone else did and, in my opinion, I was more qualified and I wondered whether his skin color was a deciding factor. Of course, I will never know. However, I understand that traditionally in our society, people of color (and I may add women as well) have been deprived of opportunities that we as white people take for granted, and I do feel that it is our responsibility as a society to make up for that or to do what we can to make things better. So I am in favor of affirmative action, but I do think that 20 points, on the scale posted above, is probably excessive. I do think that 20 points for socio-economic disadvantage, however, is appropriate because I think that people from lower income areas and the resulting poorer school districts do deserve to be placed on more equal footing with people from wealthier areas.

Obviously, it is a difficult area, but I think that affirmative action in general is beneficial, as long as all of the competing interests are balanced to come up with a system that is as fair as possible to as many people as possible.

[PotentialPledge]

I would like to agree with valkyrie. She hit it right on the nail. I am also torn, because I think everyone should be based on merit alone. But a lot of minorities are disadvantaged. Poorer school systerms, lesser socio-economic status, and so on. I think colleges should compensate for that, but not with 20 out 150 points.

[AchtungBaby80]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
So, the message that sends to me is, "Why try so hard in high school?"

That's right, why bother? I worked my arse off in middle school and high school because everyone always told us that if we wanted to get college scholarships, we had to get good grades. So I did. I also joined a bunch of student groups whose meetings were often inconvenient for me since I lived out of town, but I did it because that was what I was "supposed" to do and I thought colleges would think it looked nice. Then on Senior Awards night, I watched all the locally-sponsored scholarships being given to kids whose parents had an "in" with the sponsoring groups, but I thought, "Ah, well, the colleges will give me money." Well...no. I got a full scholarship to a nearby small university (which probably isn't known outside this region), but all I got from the school I picked was a measly $500 a semester. I now know I was lucky to get that, but it was so disheartening to work and work and get my hopes up for THAT.

On this issue with 20 points given for a student's race, I don't think very highly of it. Why should skin color be a determining factor in how deserving a person is? That's crazy. I know we want everyone to be equal and all that, but it's not going to happen, and I think this sort of affirmative action is actually counterproductive to what we're trying to achieve. The focus should not be a person's race, but their merit (grades, accomplishments, etc.) with a little need-based assistance thrown in. Notice I said A LITTLE, not EXCLUSIVELY. Some people will say it's so easy for me to say this because I'm not a "minority," but everyone is entitled to his own opinion. I still don't like affirmative action, even though in some cases it could work to my "benefit," as I'm a girl. But I don't want handouts just because I do happen to be female, and I can't see why minorities would want the same. That's like telling someone, "Well, you aren't really qualified, but since your favorite color is green, we're giving you the scholarship/job/whatever."