Who pledges the Hardest?

[babyface1914]

who pledges the hardest? personally I feel that members of IFC organizations, and anything else besides NPHC(Except for Iota Phi Theta because they don't pledge) don't pledge very hard at all. I wouldn't even call what they do pledging, I would call it "applying for membership" or something to that effect. I am a member of Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity Inc, which a historically black fraternity, and I went through quite a lot to become a member. I've seen many other processes and Im doubting there validity. Tell me your thoughts.

[SilverTurtle]

babyface-

You asked, so here are my thoughts:

This has been a pretty hot topic in the past, as you may know. In fact, I'm guessing that's part of why you posted it; to prove you're not paper + get some folks riled up. Pledging "hard" must be pretty important to you + your chapter for you to come and boldly announce it, along with your fraternity's name (it's a well respected GLO, and i'm sure that nationals and others don't appreciate that, by the way).

I went through pledging; I'm sure by your standards this wasn't pledging + I'm paper. 1st, I'm an alumnae of a coed arts fraternity. 2cnd, we didn't take wood, weren't kept up until/woken up at all hours of the night w/ class the next day, and didn't even get beaten once! (I can only assume that this is the type of thing you are referring to).

I can tell you I know my fraternity's history, creed, principles, etc. backwards + forwards. I work, even today, to further its ideals. I'm close with my pledgeclass (we don't have 'lines') and the people who were actives before + after me. Not only that, I've gotten to know some alumnae quite well.

My senior year with my chapter I served as VP + 'New Member Educator' (formerly 'Pledge Trainer'). My pledges knew their sh*t as good, if not better, than me. They went through pledging alright--> the important part where you form bonds with your pledge class + the actives, where you learn about fraternity history, where you gain a passion that continues to grow even after you leaave school.

So, maybe pledging isn't what it used to be, or at least not in all organizations. I think we pledged "harder" than some others, though: anyone can take a beating (or they can't, and they end up dead or in the hospital). It takes a different kind of dedication to go through the stuff I, and the pledges I brought in, did.

I'm sure you, and many, many others will disagree. And I have heard many of these arguments before. Most of them I can at least understand the rationale behind, whether I agree with them or not.

Hey, I just read this (brief) article tonight. If nothing else, it should be of interest to Greeks, but especially members of BGLO's.

check it out here:Hazing in Black Fraternities

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Phi Beta Fraternity

[This message has been edited by SilverTurtle (edited April 03, 2000).]

[mgdzkm433]

WELL SAID!

I agree 100%! It does take a different kind of dedication to learn the ideals/history/government/pride of a orginization. Most people want to walk in and get their badge, they don't realize that they have to earn it by studying and learning about the organizations. They don't realize that there are standards. Anybody can be made to chug a beer or take a whipping, but not anybody will take the time and effort it takes to learn the past/preasent/and future of an organization. They won't take the time to find ways to further their organization's ideals and efforts. Not anybody can balance school and greek life. We can all go to parties and get drunk, but that is NOT what it means to be a member of a greek organization. That is REAL pledging. There is no HARD pledging, there is only REAL pledging.

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"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

[LUpiphi]

I am one of the colonizing members of my chapter, and was also the first, and second pledge educator. we have always just stuck to the way the nationals pledged us, which was pretty text book, and we take pride in the fact that we are probably the only chapter on campus that doesn't haze and every one knows that. but each year the pledges try to plan events for the sisters so that we can have "fun", we actually got in trouble because the pledges set up a scavenger hunt for the sisters. my point is the girls set these things up year after year, and really want to do certain things that are considered hazing. last friday six girls showed up at a party all dressed the same, they had just been initiated that morning and they thought it was funny, meanwhile I was worried that we were going to get in trouble for it. now I am worried that maybe the other houses that do haze have closer pledge classes because they have worked through these situations together. Does anyone have any advice for me?

[SigmalambdaBeta#28]

whats up cousin? I am a brother of sigma lambd beta and I agree with you all the way... I am tired of hearing about hazing, because if you want to go through a process, you make the decision for yourself. I won't reveal anything about our process, but I was able to "find the light", know what I'm saying, and I will always remember and value my days pledging.

"nothing worth having should come easy"

[LXAAlum]

I believe we're all missing the point - it is not the activities/methods themselves that can truly be described as "hazing" - remember, in it's most essential form, hazing is a form of giving power at the expense of others - I keep hearing about this "scavenger hunt" being hazing - I wish someone would provide more information - I seriously doubt a membership scavenger hunt in of itself is hazing - there has to be something more to it, the way in which it was carried out, or the "items" that had to be scavenged...
I'm also curious as to the posts of members who will not actively talk about their experiences...why is that? What is so secret about hazing? Did you take an oath in your initiation to protect the hazing secrets? Really? Is this what your fraternity's founders really have in mind when they started your organization? If you can't tie hazing practices to the ideals of your organization, then why are they so important? How do they contribute to the overall goal of your organization? Educate me...


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Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

[mgdzkm433]

First, scavanger hunts. We all know what a basic scavanger hunt is. What probably happened is. . .A long time ago a chapter of a sorority somewhere in the US decided to have a scavanger hunt for their (then) pledges. Well, a sister (most likely) made the girls go.. . like they didn't have a choice. One probably had a test the next day and the sisters said that it was something they had to do. Then they probably made them go all over the place and get the items in the scavanger hunt. Maybe some of the items were vulgar or they had to chug a beer at each destination. . .who knows. Well, one of the pledges reported it and today its history. Now no sorority is allowed to do scavanger hunts, at all, because it's considered hazing, no matter how harmless or fun they might be. We also can't call people pledges, we have to call them "new members." We can't hold the names of big sisters, all "new members" have to know who their big sister is when they start their "new membership." We can't have them wear "pledge" pins or ribbons because that is considered hazing. These are all little things that someone has blown out of proportion. Someone probably got in trouble for not wearing their ribbons, and they didn't like it, so they reported that the sisters were hazing them.

Second, I was never hazed. I was never made to do anything I didn't want to do. We had sisterhood activities. That consisted of a lot of different things. Movies, dinners, bonfires, etc. etc. HOWEVER, I'm not going to tell you everything we did. A lot of activities were traditions that had been passed down for ages (and not just rituals). These have been private for almost a century. But I will tell you that there was never hazing involved in any of these things. I'm sure that you won't tell me every little thing that happened in you fraternity. We have LXA's on my old campus, and I know that they would never tell me everything the do. . .but that doesn't mean that there was hazing involved. I knew a lot of those guys, I even went to one of their banquets, they have a lot of secret stuff that they won't share, but I am not going to assume that hazing was involved.

Third, I believe in tradition. I believe it should be upheld with respect. Our founders did have secret activities and rituals that I believe should stay that way. I also believe that this anti-hazing movement is out of control. I was just thinking about this today. . .If we go the way we are going, we are going to have to give each "new member" a list of our rituals outlining every thing that we do. That way they aren't walking into something that they have no clue what is going to happen to them. That would make our rituals public. What if they decided to drop out? What if they decided to show all their friends. The one thing that we hold highest, our rituals/traditions, would be down the tubes. This is very concievable. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if this were to occur, would you? Who thinks that our rituals should be public?

Mikki
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

[ginger17sr]

I think that it depends on what scavenger hunts they have to do. Some scavenger hunts are fun and harmless, but others are not. On a 20/20 report about hazing, one of the interviewed girls "Sarah" and other groups of three were put into back seats of cars with their heads down. They couldn't look out the window or talk. One of the sisters drove them out of the state of Minnesota and into North Dakota. (They were close to the state boarder I assume) The girls were dropped off into a wooded area and then told to find their way back to campus. "Sarah said that she spent most of the night outside in sub zero degree temperatures and often wading into knee deep snow". Her foot as it turns out, was frost bit. But she wouldn't let the sisters down and went through with the pain. After 2 days and after initiation she finally got medical attention. The doctor told her that they wanted to schedule an emergency amputation in the morning to cut off her toes. She refused to go through with this procedure and after long painful months of treatment her foot was saved. Later she sued the campus and the sorority, and both denied that it happened. Scavenger hunts such as this, obviously are harmful to the health of students, and I see where some of these people are coming from when they consider this hazing. Other types of scavenger hunts such as finding silly things should not be considered hazing, but what do you do in a situation like this? How do you determine what is harmful and what is not?

[LXAAlum]

Mikki, I for some reason overlooked you are DZ - we have them on my alma mater as well - just as a side note - the best girls on campus too (true ladies and fun to be with - and man could they SING!).

Getting back to our discussion - first of all, please don't think I want true fraternal secrets disclosed. By true secrets, I mean the items you and I probably both took an oath to uphold, meaning the initiation ritual and symbols, etc. (And I'll bet you if we all sat down and went over our particular secrets, we'd find more in common with each other's organizations than differences - however, we both took an oath, so that won't happen) ...However, to me, hazing is not covered by a membership oath, in fact, it flies in the face of the oath one takes at initiation. In short, I believe it makes a hypocrite out of members who perpetuate hazing. However, our "new members" (as you may know, we do not have Pledges, we have Associate Members, and the distinction is MORE than semantic) - are told UP FRONT when they join that they will be asked to do nothing a true man could not or should not do.

I agree that scavenger hunts and other "fun" activities should not be classified in the same category has a hazing activity - however, being forced to drink during an activity does cross a line - at that point, it is no longer just a "scavenger hunt". I also believe new members should wear their pledge (sorry, new member) pins, and they should be worn with pride, not out of obligation. This would help protect them from learning true secrets of the organization, that could spoil their initiation experience.

Our Founding Fathers/Sisters all had secret activities and Rituals upon founding, this is true. But, these Rituals and activities were all tied directly to the ideals, beliefs, and vision of the order. I find it hard to believe that founding fathers of any fraternal organization would approve of many of the hazing practices that are around today (forced consumption of alcohol, sleep deprivation, smearing of food, denial of basic hygiene, calisthenics, the list can go on....) - how would rolling around in last nights dinner leftovers have anything to do with such ideals common to most organizations as Honor, Respect, Brotherhood, Morality, etc...? That is where I'd like to see someone argue the perspective.

I think you and I are very close in our beliefs, and yes, many hazing practices fall into a "gray" area of definition. (And I believe an attempt to create a list of what is or is not hazing is pointless - the activity isn't the issue, it is the intent or motivation behind the activity that is the hazing litmus test) However, there are many more that obviously cross the line, into the loss of personal self-respect in order to belong. To me, that is the greatest tradegy of them all.

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Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

With scavenger hunts i can see a complaint being too fold.

The first is the items required to obtain. My freshman year, I saw a list a group (not sure if it was a fraternity or what) had to obtain. Some were harmless items like a pink Q-tip or a High School Photo of a girl. Others were not so harmless or innocent. This could be consider (in extreme) hazing because you maybe putting someone under physical deress because they don't like confrontational sitations ("begging" for items) or public embarrisment due to the content of the list. Hazing could also occur based on the outcome of the scavenger hunt - ie punishment if all items are not obtained with in a certain time frame, or for the last group that turns in a completed list.

The second would be more of a liability issue. Someone getting hurt while wondering about the streets either on foot or car. Getting an abusive response (physical or mental) from someone the group asks. etc.

Now with that said. I disagree that scavenger hunts should be included as hazing in such a generalized form. I participated in a scavenger hunt as part of initiation with an honor society. The purpose of the hunt was to aquaint the group with the history of the college and locations of refrence items and labs for my major. In no way have i ever seen or consider this hazing.

artimis

[BurningSands]

I really don't like all the rules fraternites & sororities are coming up with as far as pledging. We all need to get together and discuss this pledging issue. I think we need to go back with open pledging as far as letting it be known on the yard. Have all the Intakes, dress alike and be together on the yard so people would see frats & soros don't haze. I don't like the term "paper" I think you shoyld be pledge not just send in an application and get the letters. Frats & soros need to know if the person trying to join a particular frat or soro is true to the organization and not joining for the name ..."Paper is out"

[mgdzkm433]

Hazing does not equal bond. Those girls that made up the scavanger hunt for the sisters. . .GOOD FOR THEM! Some idiot somewhere had to make a big deal out of a scavanger hunt, now we all suffer for it. If the girls want to do this stuff and they are all for it. . .do it! It's not considered hazing. Hazing is when the girls are forced to do something against their will. If they are making up their own activities, that is fine. Don't restrict it, these FUN activities are what create bonds, not hazing. If you really want to cover your butt, have the incoming classes form a list of ideas of FUN, sisterhood activities that they would like to participate in. Make dates for each activity and then have each girl sign the paper saying that this was their idea and that in no way do they consider these activities hazing. Then submit a copy to the sorority to look over. Vote on each activity and decide if it is something that could possibly be considered a major hazing activity by other people (use common sense-if it's a scavanger hunt, it's ok). Submit a revised list to the girls with the dates. KEEP THE LIST ON FILE. That way if you are given ANY problems by anyone, you have a signed document saying that these girls do not consider it hazing. The document will also not appear to be signed by the girls because of "pressure" because they formed the list. Make sure that it isn't a "big secret" that is what usually gets people in trouble. It might be a harmless activity, but if it's kept secret people believe something else is going on...if it's found out. Well, anyhow, that's my idea.

Mikki
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

[mgdzkm433]

First, I have no idea what this "paper" thing is, so somebody enlighten me.

I see the point you were making Artimis. Those things that you mentioned are good examples of what NOT to do. I find it hard to believe that people lack common sense. I think action SHOULD be taken against those who would make up such a scavanger hunt, but I think it's wrong to ban the activity. As for the liability thing. I don't think that holds water. In LIFE, we walk or drive everywhere. Not just for the scavanger hunt. Sororities and Fraternities have parties or socials, as they are often called. These parties are known by their nationals. If there was any liability issue, it should be with that, not a scavanger hunt. If a girl is walking around during a scavanger hunt, and she trips and falls and breaks her arm, I think she's going to be more embarrassed than anything. I don't think she would blame the sorority. Of course I could be wrong. . .there are some pretty money hungry people out there. I went on a scavanger hunt with my professional fraternity, and it was fun. We didn't go off campus and at each location we would learn a little more about the history of our campus(my campus is 5 miles from Antitem Battle Field [civil war battle], so there is a lot of historical sites on and off campus). It was fun, and I in no way considered it hazing.

I do however want to say that I do see you point. There is some validity to all the points, but I think that if hazing is going on, just shut down that chapter or punish those who are doing the hazing. . .don't punish everyone! I think that risk management is very important, and we should all be made aware of the problems with hazing, but I DON'T think we should all pay the price because of some idiots out there who decided to abuse their privilages(sp?).


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"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

[Serenity]

Burning Sands, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I am a member of an LGLO sorority and I pledged above ground. The majority of LGLO's have pledge lines. Our pledges wear uniforms, walk on line, cut corners, etc.

I'm not saying that hazing does not go on, but because the pledges are in the public eye "hazing" can not get out of hand as in previous years. As it is right now, some college campus' feel that walking in line IS hazing. This is ridiculous!

The other day I was watching the Discovery channel. They were showing what it takes to make it in the Naval Academy. I don't see anyone campaigning against the Navy because of their hazing practices. What is the difference?

I learned all about UNITY duing my process. You can't learn this by signing papers. You really have go through the process. For me, it was an experience like no other: to have line sisters, to be together for weeks 24/7, to EARN our letters. I can't understand why they want to take that away.

Yes, some people get out of hand. (I know about the negative pledge experiences, please don't bombard me with that info.) But as a whole, the process would be better if it was above ground and not underground. Let's face reality! There are BGLO sororities and fraternities that still PLEDGE their members. Because they do this behind a cloak of secrecy, it can allow members to feel that "anything goes". Also, some propectees don't want to be "paper". They want to EARN their letters so that they can get RESPECT. Why shouldn't they be given that opportunity?!



[This message has been edited by Serenity (edited April 05, 2000).]

[blue_5_1914]

I must agree with what one of my brohs said earlier. I worked way to hard to get to sigma land, i dont want somebody who just signed on to get the advantages that all of us worked for. You teach these skaters the grip and other important things in the organization. They are quick to tell someone the grip and so on. If they would of pleadged for that they would not be quick to tell them. G.O.M.A.B.