Feminism vs. Pop Culture

[Asia2000]

This is something I am currently strugging with and I am curious to hear what other women think of this philosophical and moral question.

My current volunteer project at a local domestic violence/rape crisis shelter is teaching me so much more about feminism. I sympathize with and support and believe in their causes and ideals. However, I am big on pop culture. I LOVE hip hop in general. I like a lot of movies and TV shows this organization, and broader orgs, condemn.

My question: How do you, as women, balance this conflict as it pertains to you? I am sure each of us has come across this question in some shape or form, be it in rap music or something else.

Hmm, I hope this is clear.

[sigmagrrl]

I do not listen to nor do I support hiphop. Most of the musicians (if you can call them that)perpetuate an image of women that goes against every fiber in my being...Calling women "bitches", "ho's", etc is showing blantant disregard for 51% of the population. I cannot understand how one can listen to these lyrics and try to A) defend them or B) say they do not affect their opinions of women. I listen to music that personifies and symbolizes women's struggle to get ahead and stay ahead. Tori Amos, Alanis Morissette, Sarah MacLachlan, Esthero, Kristen Hersh...All of these artists write lyrics that make me proud to be a woman...

[Asia2000]

Ok, but what about people that DO have the same issue that I am having?

[Allie_XO]

What a topic! This past Spring Break "The Thong Song" was really big. I danced to it just as much as anybody else. But I believe that women are more than thong models!

The way I figure, if men think that I am only a physical being, and that I have no mental substance, I can totally blind-side them. If men are really stupid enough to believe crap like that - I don't want anything to do with them. Also, most of the lyrics are childish and cartoonish. It doens't bother me at all.

What does bother me (stepping onto my soapbox) is when women get up in front of people and say "oh, I'm just expressing my womanhood." And then take off their clothes and sing about how much they need some guy who cheated and that it is there fault that he cheated and oh - please pay all my bills and support me too. That offends me more than anything. That is why I find teen pop more offensive than hip-hop. If a rapper talks about women in certain ways everyone kinda rolls their eyes, but if a woman behaves that way - she's proving what the rapper said.

So, I guess what I'm saying is - if it sounds good and you want to listen to it - listen! Just live by example and be what real women are!

I'd be really interested to know if and guys are influenced by pop culture too.

Allie

[Aurora]

I'm also both a feminist and an avid pop culture fan and don't see anything wrong with you listening to the music you like to listen to. Most music has many different intrepretations. You listen to it and have it mean what you want...or have it mean nothing at all and just listen to it for fun. It's when people listen to music and take it the wrong way (like listening to Adam's Song and then committing suicide) that's the problem. I personally do not like rap or hip hop music, not because of what it says, just because it doesn't appeal to me. My favorite musicians are Sarah McLachlan, Dido, Barenaked Ladies (no, their name doesn't offend me...it's funny), 3 Doors Down, etc. That just happenes to be the music I like the most.

One question: What tv shows do the feminists you know condemn?

[33girl]

Asia2000, have you ever read anything by Camille Paglia? I heard her talk one time about how she was in the first wave of feminism and they told her she shouldn't like the Rolling Stones because of the song "Under My Thumb" - which they called anti-woman. Her argument is that she appreciated it as art and she had a real problem with people telling her something was bad art because of the message.

Basically, I like whatever I like and I'm not going to stop because "feminists" tell you it isn't female-centric. That kind of thinking is as stifling and backward as the 1950's view of women as homemakers and nothing else. Feminism is supposed to be about empowering you to be a strong human being, not protecting you from that CD because Puffy says a naughty word.

[ilovemyglo]

I am in the radio industry (or at least trying) and I love all kinds of music. I also learned a long time ago to never let a man make me think negatively of myself. I take the good with the bad. Yes there are those members of the hip hop community that are constantly degrading women, but look at Lauren Hill. She is admired by everyone in the community, has more critical and commercial success than many of those men. I think that is a real testament to the hip hop community. You also have artist like R Kelly and such that write wonderful music and lyrics and although some of it is about abusive relationships, he does it to shed light on the subject, not praise it. You have to pick and chose. Yes I like Jay Z but I don't watch his videos of women bouncing their breasts around in order to make themselves appealing and having sex with him. Who cares about that? There are other musical generations that have had this problem, look at rock and how hard it is for women to get into that, but you have Gwen Stefani up there belting out hard core lyrics that are heartfelt and she is kicka$$!!!!! Just remember not to let negative comments made by artist feed your idea of yourself and of what those men view women as... meat.

[sigmagrrl]

Originally posted by Aurora:


One question: What tv shows do the feminists you know condemn?

Uh, the MAN SHOW!!! Have you seen that disgusting, trite, sexist piece of crap??? WHAT GARBAGE!

[Aurora]

While I agree The Man Show is disgusting, I think you have to take its content with a grain of salt. It portrays women as sex objects, but it also shows men as only beer chugging, burping, idiotic slobs. Now, we all know that those are not the only quality to a man...they're sex objects too, damnit! Just kidding (sort of). Anyway...The Man Show is not meant to be serious. I guess the type of sexism that gets me the most irrate is when it's more political (it's easy to figure out that I did not vote for Shrub). I can see other sides to entertainment but real life is another story.

[This message has been edited by Aurora (edited February 20, 2001).]

[SuperXO]

I totally agree, Aurora. MOst intelligent people I admire don't take pop culture too seriously as far as applying it to their own behavior in life (i.e. I would never be friends with that Jackass that actually did some of those stunts he saw on MTV's Jackass!) But, politics, work, social behavior is different and I do not tolerate misogyny there. I especially can't stand this neo-feminist hating movement where women talk about how much they hate feminists. Well, without women like Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Gloria Steinem and others, you wouldn't be able to express that opinion in the first place, much less would you be at college, working or even spending so much time socializing. Anyway, I particularly can't stand the way politics are going nowadays. Did anyone read the bio of Laura Bush in People a few weeks ago? Dubya said, "I have the best kind of wife for my career....she doesn't steal the limelight." Yeah, that's great that they stand up there saying wives are best when they shut up, smile and don't interfere. To me, that's the worst kind of role model. I can get past the whole sex object thing, because like Allie said, you can blind side them and show them women can be sexy AND Smart and talented, etc. But, when men and women start learning that women should shut up and stand aside, you can never blind side them, because no matter how great the thing is that you are saying, all they think is you shouldn't be saying anything in the first place and (in myexperience) they don't hear your content. I'd much rather deal with Eminem than Dubya.

[Dionysus]

Not necessarily a feminist anymore, however I think these newer trends in popular culture are taking steps backwards. IMO I would be surprised if women will be back to being bare foot and pregnant within the next 50 years.

[Optimist Prime]

Preists of Attis and Cybllele (sp?)

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Asia2000


My question: How do you, as women, balance this conflict as it pertains to you? I am sure each of us has come across this question in some shape or form, be it in rap music or something else.

Hmm, I hope this is clear.

While I'm not a female I did some research on pop culture and its agenda setting with young women. I did some analysis of several issues of YM magazine and found that less than 10% (maybe less than 5% I'd have to look) was actually dedicated to articles with messages like "Be yourself, etc" the rest of the magazine was dedicated to advertising selling makeup, clothes, etc and "articles" that read more like the sharper image catalog.

It's interesting how even some things that masquerade as 'pro-feminist' are in truth wolves in sheeps clothing in that respect. Interesting subject though.