Homeland Security, the Beginning of the End?

[James]

When the Office of Homeland Security (HS) was originally started I turned and said to my friend:

"If the HS ever gets its own police force it will be the end of Civil Liberties as we know it."

What did I mean by that?

We have created an organization whose mandate will be to actively protect us against all enemies both foreign and domestic.

And today's world gives an incredible ability to do so to organs of the state.

We have technology today that past Agencies of State Security dreamed about in vain.

We have the ability to listen and record conversations that use key words, both from cell phones and land lines.

The FBI's Carnivore program allows it to audit emails (probably by keyword) and log ISP's.

And we now have the ability to collate and store that information. Thus creating "Files of Un-American behavior on Citizens". Something the FBI got a lot of flack from after Hoover.

Jurisdiction for the HS is already expanding dramatically. We have said that some drug transactions may be indirectly funding terrorists.

We have classified that muslim man who was depressed and who's life was a shambles (he shot some people at an El Al check in point) as a terrorist. It happened in California.

We have heard rhetoric from local politicians labeling acts of violence in the States as terrorist activities. I am talking about acts of gang violence here.

[b]And to top it all off, on issues that might have some link to terrorists we are willing to take away the fundamental Civil Rights of Americans.

We are incarcerating American Citizens without Charge, Trial, Representation, or Due Process. And we are doing that even though Federal Courts have mandated that these people should be released!

And we Americans are so comfortable we don't even care!

Any more thoughts on this?

[lionlove]

Originally posted by James


And we Americans are so comfortable we don't even care!

Any more thoughts on this? [/B]

James, I agree with everything you said except for this line. I am an American and I do care about this issue. These are actions that we will look back on in fifty years and wonder "what were we thinking?" in the same way people look back at the McCarthy era with a sense of regret.

[Rudey]

I'm not exactly sure what your gripes with it are because you're not specific enough and you're lumping a bunch of different issues into one category. The technology to eavesdrop has been around for a long time. Ask any intelligence official and they will tell you that the NSA has been "vacuuming the skies" for a very long time. Carnivore (used way before homeland defense by the way) wasn't exactly a major turning point; What is it that makes you upset now all of a sudden? Have you even done research into these technologies and policies enough to be upset with them?

The fact that you threw in the El Al incident baffles me. That was clearly a hate crime. You are also misrepresenting some facts when it comes to the legal trials that have occured and legal rights. I'd like to see some sources on the gang incidents before I comment on that because I honestly have no clue.

In the summer, I attended a large conference in NY where it was essentially a Skadden Arps legal team debating some constitutional rights group. For me and many others in that room, our right to walk around safely without having our bodies butchered and blown apart far surpassed almost any privacy right.

-Rudey
--But then again, I guess some people are really worried about big brother and are willing to lose some limbs to watch "Debbie Does Dallas" in sheer privacy.

Originally posted by James
[B]When the Office of Homeland Security (HS) was originally started I turned and said to my friend:

"If the HS ever gets its own police force it will be the end of Civil Liberties as we know it."

What did I mean by that?

We have created an organization whose mandate will be to actively protect us against all enemies both foreign and domestic.

And today's world gives an incredible ability to do so to organs of the state.

We have technology today that past Agencies of State Security dreamed about in vain.

We have the ability to listen and record conversations that use key words, both from cell phones and land lines.

The FBI's Carnivore program allows it to audit emails (probably by keyword) and log ISP's.

And we now have the ability to collate and store that information. Thus creating "Files of Un-American behavior on Citizens". Something the FBI got a lot of flack from after Hoover.

Jurisdiction for the HS is already expanding dramatically. We have said that some drug transactions may be indirectly funding terrorists.

We have classified that muslim man who was depressed and who's life was a shambles (he shot some people at an El Al check in point) as a terrorist. It happened in California.

We have heard rhetoric from local politicians labeling acts of violence in the States as terrorist activities. I am talking about acts of gang violence here.

And to top it all off, on issues that might have some link to terrorists we are willing to take away the fundamental Civil Rights of Americans.

We are incarcerating American Citizens without Charge, Trial, Representation, or Due Process. And we are doing that even though Federal Courts have mandated that these people should be released!

And we Americans are so comfortable we don't even care!

Any more thoughts on this?

[Tom Earp]

James are You a flame blower?

K Lets bomb everybody?

Hell man I know you better than that!

I am not advocataring blowing that SOB to hell! Well, Yep I am!

Hell, I am just trying to pay My damn Bills like everyone else! Hell John ASSCIOFT is a god Fearing Christian and a member of a Barber Shop Quartet is is a good Man! BS! He wants Power Just like all of teh wolves in sheeps clothing!

I am gowin to fix dinner now!

TTFN All!

[DeltAlum]

Orwell only missed it by 18 years.

[Optimist Prime]

I want to move.

Maybe to hollywood. Hollywood will always be safe.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Optimist Prime
I want to move.

Maybe to hollywood. Hollywood will always be safe.

Cali should be safe... The south got it wrong... They had a big military thing and tried to rebel and break away like that...

California.. it just sort of dropped off and became its own little country

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by James
Any more thoughts on this?

Honestly, I'm fine with the entire concept. I have nothing to hide.