Be patriotic or get out!

[Dionysus]

Agree or disagree?
Why?

Damasa's thread got me thinking about this.

[CC1GC]

I think every individual should be patriotic, as long as it doesn't extend into ethnocentric animosity.

[Optimist Prime]

The best way to be patriotic is to confront the leadership of this republic whenever you feel it isn't doing its job. Exercise your rights or you will loose them. People fought and gave lives for the rights, that is what I was preached. Well, if you don't stand up to people who try to deny you your rights, then they all died in vain.

[AchtungBaby80]

That's a little harsh, don't you think? My version of patriotic may be different than someone else's, so...

[RACooper]

If yor saying patriotic... yes

The problem is far too many people confuse patriotism and nationalism. Personally after many visits to the states since 9/11, I feel that patriotism has been replaced by nationalism.

If you want an example, last March I was walking through dowtown Washington looking at all the flags and flag-like banners. In combination with the overt security I was unfortunately reminded of Nazi Germany. The imagary not the atmosphere (think of the old black and white films of Berlin with the banners everywhere). I was struck by the need to prove how patriotic each building or business was. I have always adopted the standard that until proven otherwise, they are patriotic.

[33girl]

Disagree completely. Part of the beauty of America is the right to say "America sucks" if you feel like it.

If you want to know why, watch The Crucible - it's been playing on lots of TV stations lately.

[KillarneyRose]

The thing I honestly don't understand is why the people who think this country is that terrible don't move elsewhere and leave it for those of us who are happy here.

That sounds really harsh, but if I were living in a place that I hated I would leave.

No flames please, I'm really not trying to be b**chy!

[Eupolis]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
The thing I honestly don't understand is why the people who think this country is that terrible don't move elsewhere and leave it for those of us who are happy here.

1) Since "patriotism" is the topic: there's a good argument that it's more patriotic to try to improve the country you call your own than to move to another.

I can tell you that I definitely think that we can improve on a lot of things here. I think that some other countries handle some things better than we do (though I don't necessarily think that we should or could emulate them). There are probably also lots of things that we could do better than anyone else if we tried, but we don't try.

I haven't gone through the trouble of becoming a lawyer because I think that we're just the greatest and we've got the best policies and everything here is just wonderful -- as you can already tell, I don't think that. I did it because our ways of going about governing are pretty darn good compared to alternative systems, and I want to contribute in some small way, to try to improve things where I can and to temper the problems when I can't.

I think it is a great virtue of this country that people are free to dispute what makes good policy and good government. I think that if we are to maintain that virtue of our government, we cannot say, "if you don't like it, then leave." Fortunately, our political system is engineered against that tendency.

Oh, there are a few practical reasons one might choose not to leave, too.

2) Practical problems 1: family, friends, and jobs are here.

3) Practical problems 2: immigration and alienage laws may forbid it.

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by Eupolis


Oh, there are a few practical reasons one might choose not to leave, too.

2) Practical problems 1: family, friends, and jobs are here.

3) Practical problems 2: immigration and alienage laws may forbid it.

Every day, immigrants to the U.S. face those problems but come here anyway because they wish to improve their lives.

I have two children and I wish to give them every opportunity to become successful contributors to society when they grow up. I also want to raise them in an environment that affords me these opportunities. If I didn't feel that this was the optimum place in which to do that, I would leave. And that is taking into consideration the fact that I'm a rah rah, yea America flagwaver. If I were one of those flag-burning, Osama rules; we deserved it types, I'd leave and find a place that was more suited to my needs and ideology.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
If yor saying patriotic... yes

The problem is far too many people confuse patriotism and nationalism. Personally after many visits to the states since 9/11, I feel that patriotism has been replaced by nationalism.

If you want an example, last March I was walking through dowtown Washington looking at all the flags and flag-like banners. In combination with the overt security I was unfortunately reminded of Nazi Germany. The imagary not the atmosphere (think of the old black and white films of Berlin with the banners everywhere). I was struck by the need to prove how patriotic each building or business was. I have always adopted the standard that until proven otherwise, they are patriotic.

I'm sorry perhaps you don't understand the difference between patriotism/nationalism/fascism. In the meantime, please ask all Canadians to stop wearing those silly maple leaf flags - specially in the US.

Originally posted by Eupolis
I can tell you that I definitely think that we can improve on a lot of things here. I think that some other countries handle some things better than we do (though I don't necessarily think that we should or could emulate them). There are probably also lots of things that we could do better than anyone else if we tried, but we don't try.

Many people understand that this country is not perfect, but right now I challenge you to present a country that is better than us overall. The French for example: they can't stop complaining about how they are unbiased and support human rights. But perhaps they forget how they rape the land in the middle east...how they treat Muslim immigrants...perhaps they forget how they butchered a million Algerian Muslims - both directly and indirectly just a little while ago.

Also, people don't understand the difference between complaining and making a difference. To me the complainers fade away. They are the ones that don't vote, and if they do, that's where their political involvement ends. They don't know a single thing about (neo)economics, domestic issues, and foreign policies and feel that the one article they read in USA Today has qualified them to make lengthy speeches by the water coolers at work. In the end of the day, there is no record of their accomplishments.

-Rudey
--I've always wanted to meet someone in the French Foreign Legion.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by Rudey
they can't stop complaining about how they are unbiased and support human rights. But perhaps they forget how they rape the land in the middle east...how they treat Muslim immigrants...

Oh wait...you are talking about the French? My bad.

As far as if you don't like it, get out, it is people with THAT ideology that exemplify and perpetuate what is wrong with this country today. It implies CONFORMITY. Must everyone conform with everyone else?

For me? I don't like leadership of this country. I don't like the systematic and institutional problems that exist in this society. But as long as that piece of paper called the constitution tells me that I CAN dislike it, then I will continue to do so. That same piece of paper also tells me that I can be vocal about it, so I will continue to do that too.

And really we can argue and discuss and debate this point to death. The fact is, if everyone who disliked this country decided to just leave, y'all would be some bored individuals.

[Rudey]

Yes I did say France. And actually you can't substitute the US for France in that sentence like you are trying to imply. If you'd like to attempt to do so, go for it.

-Rudey

Originally posted by librasoul22


Oh wait...you are talking about the French? My bad.

As far as if you don't like it, get out, it is people with THAT ideology that exemplify and perpetuate what is wrong with this country today. It implies CONFORMITY. Must everyone conform with everyone else?

For me? I don't like leadership of this country. I don't like the systematic and institutional problems that exist in this society. But as long as that piece of paper called the constitution tells me that I CAN dislike it, then I will continue to do so. That same piece of paper also tells me that I can be vocal about it, so I will continue to do that too.

And really we can argue and discuss and debate this point to death. The fact is, if everyone who disliked this country decided to just leave, y'all would be some bored individuals.

[Eupolis]

Originally posted by Rudey


Many people understand that this country is not perfect, but right now I challenge you to present a country that is better than us overall.

Oh, I never said I could -- that's why I said some countries probably handle some things better. That's an important qualification. Though I think that parts of our political and legal system have problems, I prefer the sum total to anything anyone else has to offer.

Originally posted by KillarneyRose


And that is taking into consideration the fact that I'm a rah rah, yea America flagwaver. If I were one of those flag-burning, Osama rules; we deserved it types, I'd leave and find a place that was more suited to my needs and ideology.

There's an entire political and ideological spectrum between believing that the United States can do no wrong and believing that it can do no right. Even a "spectrum" is an inadequate metaphor because there are so many ideological nuances even in mainstream U.S. society, but I think you get the idea. While it does not make sense for people who truly loathe the country to stay here, it is possible to disagree with what happens here a great deal and still to know that the country provides the most opportunities to build a life (the most material opportunities, at least).

If you are talking only about the absolute extreme, who hate everything about this country, then I agree; it's silly to stay somewhere that makes you miserable. But if you're saying that I should go somewhere else, say, because I firmly oppose certain aspects of the U.S. executive branch's new international military doctrine (which you can find at http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nssall.html), I think that's a little off-kilter.

I guess this raises the question of what patriotism really is. There was lots of discussion about the notion of "patriotism" well before last year (see e.g., Nussbaum et al., For Love of Country (Joshua Cohen, ed.; Beacon 1996)). For my part, I do not think that patriotism involves agreeing with what the government does in a given moment, and you will never, ever see me endorsing "my country right or wrong" ideas of patriotism. I'm in the line of thought that holds that patriotism has a lot to do with making a social commitment to do something to take how far we've come as a country and make it better. I say that recognizing that the entire country will never agree on what legal and political changes are ideal.

[moe.ron]

Who determines what constitute a patriot? The government?

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by librasoul22


Oh wait...you are talking about the French? My bad.

As far as if you don't like it, get out, it is people with THAT ideology that exemplify and perpetuate what is wrong with this country today. It implies CONFORMITY. Must everyone conform with everyone else?

For me? I don't like leadership of this country. I don't like the systematic and institutional problems that exist in this society. But as long as that piece of paper called the constitution tells me that I CAN dislike it, then I will continue to do so. That same piece of paper also tells me that I can be vocal about it, so I will continue to do that too.

And really we can argue and discuss and debate this point to death. The fact is, if everyone who disliked this country decided to just leave, y'all would be some bored individuals.

My sentiments exactly.

I do love the country I'm in and VERY thankful that I was born here. However, that doesn't mean that we should be BLIND to it's wrongdoings. Just because this is a great country, it doesn't mean that it is a perfect one and there's no room for improvement.