Affirmative Action

[ADVOCATE]

Hello Ladies:

I have been monitoring the Board for a while and I love it. I look forward to having discussions with all of you.
But let me get to the point. I want to get everyone's opinion on Affirmative Action. I was in Constitutional Law today and we are discussing the current state of the law concerning this issue. I was so shocked that the majority of the students believe that there is nolonger any need for any type of Affirmative Actions programs. Someone went so far to say that the playing field is now even for minorites so if we can not cut it then we don't deserve to get into the schools or get the jobs!!! I am upset, sorry for the long post. Tell me your thoughts.

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Leading Lady

[Lil' bit]

Originally posted by ADVOCATE

Hello Ladies:

I have been monitoring the Board for a while and I love it. I look forward to having discussions with all of you.
But let me get to the point. I want to get everyone's opinion on Affirmative Action. I was in Constitutional Law today and we are discussing the current state of the law concerning this issue. I was so shocked that the majority of the students believe that there is nolonger any need for any type of Affirmative Actions programs. Someone went so far to say that the playing field is now even for minorites so if we can not cut it then we don't deserve to get into the schools or get the jobs!!! I am upset, sorry for the long post. Tell me your thoughts.

Hello Advocate. I have also had the similar discussion in my Constitutional Law Class during my second year of Law School. Yes, people still make the same remarks and it is weird because you would think that one, in these classes might be a little more enlightened. However, that is not always the case. Again, I believe also that many of students' comments come from the myths behind Affirmative Action. There is always going to be someone who may upset you. Try not to get too upset. I definitely disagree that the playing field is even. That is obvious. I am sure one can look in their law school classes, as I do and notice that the playing field is not equal. People need to be educated on the purpose of Affirmative action, because many feel it is to give African AMericans a place in a job or school, when all it is, is to ensure that we have the same opportunities after we have already met the minimum requirements for the job or school. But at the same time, sometimes individuals have an entitlement mentality. They feel they are entitled to the job, the seat in the class. More times than not, during this Affirmative Action discussion in my Constitutional Law Class, several students stated "my friend did not get in and they had..." blah, blah, blah. However, what one fails to realize, that no one has the right to get in, just because they meet the basic requirements. (Sound familiar to other situations). But at the same time, who's to say that job, or the seat was there's to begin with, and who said that the person who so called "took" that seat was African American. Moreover, no one ever acknowledges that we, African Americans are in these positions because we meet the requirements and are well deserving. Just my take. AGain, Affirmative Action is to give individuals the equal opportunity. But people seem to have forgotten, who benefited the most from Affirmative Action: 1st: White male veterans; 2nd: White women.... and at the bottom of the list were AFrican Americans who benefitted the least. Just my take.. Sorry for such a long post...And to add, I know that Affirmative Action does not only affect African Americans, I just chose to speak regarding African Americans, seeing as I am one


[This message has been edited by Lil' bit (edited November 02, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lil' bit (edited November 02, 2000).]

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by ADVOCATE:
Hello Ladies:

I have been monitoring the Board for a while and I love it. I look forward to having discussions with all of you.
But let me get to the point. I want to get everyone's opinion on Affirmative Action. I was in Constitutional Law today and we are discussing the current state of the law concerning this issue. I was so shocked that the majority of the students believe that there is nolonger any need for any type of Affirmative Actions programs. Someone went so far to say that the playing field is now even for minorites so if we can not cut it then we don't deserve to get into the schools or get the jobs!!! I am upset, sorry for the long post. Tell me your thoughts.

If memory serves me still, the purpose of Affirmative Action was to correct past injustices by providing federally-mandated opportunities for minorities. By past injustices I mean African-American service-oriented businesses beind denied and opportunity to bid on government contracts and the kinds of jobs that pay the kind of money and provides those businesses with professional reputations that secures a future for a business. On the micro level, we were denied entrance to colleges and universities(and EVERY form of education) based upon the color of our skin, our religion, sex, etc; and we all know how important education is.

Today many of us aren't aware of how life was for our forefathers here in this land after emancipation. We owned nothing, had no education, belonged to no organization that could provide assistance of any kind. The laws still looked upon us as chattel, and many of us had no idea where we would live or how. Every where we turned, someone was trying to illegally enslave us again so that their crops could get picked freely. The only opportunity offered us was share-cropping.

Generations of a people in that situation NEED federal assistance, and ARE OWED federal assistance!

Sorry for running off yall!

[Cultured Pearl]

Advocate:

I note from your profile that you are a law student in Florida. I'm a lawyer in Florida and proud graduate of UF Law...go Gators! What law school are you attending?

[Lil' bit]

Hi Advocate... I am in my 3rd and final year of Law School.. I too am in search of a job upon graduation. Does Florida require the taking of the MPRE? I have to take it next Friday, yuck Oh, I go to Loyola Law School in Los Angeles.

[ADVOCATE]

I apologize for getting everyone so upset. But thank you for your responses. I am happy to know that there are still people who understand. Lil'Bit, if you don't mind me asking where are you in law school and what year are you? At this moment i am going through the pressure of trying to find a job that will hire me once I graduate. This process gives me a headache, but the strong endure.

Peace and Blessings,
LeadingLady

[ADVOCATE]

Hello Ladies:

Cultured Pearl I attend your school's greatest rival. However, I do not buy into the hype. I have a few questions for you: What type of law do you practice? And do you have any advice for a sister looking for a job that will hire her after she graduates?
Thanks in advance.
Lil'Bit, unfortunately we have to take the mpre as well. I wish you luck and I will send a prayer up for you. What type of law do you want to practice? Are you going to stay in Cali?

Stay blessed ladies!!

LeadingLady

[AKA_Monet]

Hey, I just thought of this one...

1. If it is true that so-called conservatives think that affirmative actions is giving "racial" preferences to people of color who have been historically discriminated...

2. If it is true that conservatives believe that everyone in amerikkklan has to be able to "lift themselves up by their boot straps" and admissions, contracts or whatever is solely based on one's merit...

3. If it is true that these same conservatives have "conservative" beliefs, meaning they think like the United States Founding Fathers--all the dead presidents...

3. If it is true that the conservatives: compassionate, moderate or staunch, are mainly followers of the Christian doctrine and believe that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior...

THEN

How do these guys think they are gonna get into Heaven???

Just wondering...

'Cuz last time I checked, it said in the King James Bible that the ONLY way to get to the Father, is thru Christ...

If Jesus Christ is showing us affirmative action, how come these guys can't?

I guess they ain't goin' to Heaven which means that we have further justified that these folks are the Devil... 'Cuz they be damned.

Don't talk sense to a fool, he won't appreciate it.

Proverbs.

[This message has been edited by AKA_Monet (edited November 10, 2000).]

[ADVOCATE]

Hello Ladies:

I had to drop in and say to AKA_Monet that your response let me see this controversy in a new light. People are always separating political and social issues from the Bible when in fact we can find the right path through the Lord and His word. Maybe we need to take this philosophy to the crisis we are experiencing in Florida. Just a thought.

LeadingLady

[Cultured Pearl]

Advocate - Sorry about the delay in responding, but I haven't been on in a while. I practice corporate law. I was in a firm for a few years as a litigator, but I've been "in-house" for the past 5 years. Feel free to e-mail me about your job search.

[serenity_24]

Hello Advocate,

First let me start by saying that I am a FIRM believer in affirmative action, and that this country is far from having a level playing field.

My question is, however:

If affirmative action was created to ensure that minorities who met basic requirements received spots in programs, why are there programs that lower the requirements for minorities and give affirmative action as the reason.

It is this type of unequalness that many people are upset about (excluding myself). I have heard many rashionales behind this, but I never really knew the facts.

Can anyone help me on this.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by serenity_24:
Hello Advocate,


My question is, however:

If affirmative action was created to ensure that minorities who met basic requirements received spots in programs, why are there programs that lower the requirements for minorities and give affirmative action as the reason.

Can anyone help me on this.

serenity_24,
I am by no means a legal or AA expert, but here is my understanding. AA programs are mandated by the federal gov't for certain entities (Contrary to popular belief, the fed gov't is not going to make any business have an AA plan unless that business is making $$ off fed contracts. Don't wanna do an AA plan? Don't bid on fed contracts! End of Story!!). AA plans are designed to promote equity in hiring of qualified applicants. When companies, colleges etc. are developing an AA plan, they should look at the demographics of their market to set the goals (not quotas). For instance, if 10% of the engineers in a city are African American, then a firm could set a hiring goal of 6% of their engineers be Black. The problems come in when folks don't want to do the work to make sure they are recruiting qualified applicants. They wait for Malik Jackson with an engineering degree from Howard to walk in off the street and apply for a job. But you see Malik heard from his frat brothers that company never hires Black folks, plus, when he was doing his rounds of interviewing they never came to Howard. So folks sit around and wonder "Why are we not getting qualifed Black applicants? There must not be any! Since the receptionists' baby daddy went to GA Tech on a football scholarship for 2 years and majored in engineering, lets give him the job so that we can say we hired one this year." Now, they've just lowered their standards, all under the guise of AA. Then when baby daddy can't perform, they either carry him (and his white co-workers begin to say you can't fire someone in a protected class) or they fire him and everyone says "See! Told you Affirmative Action did not work!!"

That's a very simplistic view, but it happens more than you think. Even the companies and colleges that are doing a lot to attract qualified applicants, are not doing a lot to retain them.

Another senario that might happen, especially in college admissions, is that folks will take into consideration things like culturally biased tests (like the SAT--the validity of that is a whole 'nother story though!), inferior inner city schools, etc. and make allowances to level the playing field.

Sorry for the book!! I hope it all makes sense!

[This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited December 07, 2000).]

[serenity_24]

Originally posted by Eclipse:
The problems come in when folks don't want to do the work to make sure they are recruiting qualified applicants. They wait for Malik Jackson with an engineering degree from Howard to walk in off the street and apply for a job. But you see Malik heard from his frat brothers that company never hires Black folks, plus, when he was doing his rounds of interviewing they never came to Howard. So folks sit around and wonder "Why are we not getting qualifed Black applicants? There must not be any! Since the receptionists' baby daddy went to GA Tech on a football scholarship for 2 years and majored in engineering, lets give him the job so that we can say we hired one this year." Now, they've just lowered their standards, all under the guise of AA. Then when baby daddy can't perform, they either carry him (and his white co-workers begin to say you can't fire someone in a protected class) or they fire him and everyone says "See! Told you Affirmative Action did not work!!"

Folks will take into consideration things like culturally biased tests (like the SAT--the validity of that is a whole 'nother story though!), inferior inner city schools, etc. and make allowances to level the playing field.

Sorry for the book!! I hope it all makes sense!

LOL Eclipse!!!!

This was my understanding all along. You have just solidified my response to others who come to me with the same questions. Thanks.

"Rather it seems that if you have less than a 3.0, but yet you have something else to bring to the table then you will still be admitted. Which in my opinion is totally fair.."

I totally agree with you Inspired One.

[serenity_24]

Originally posted by Eclipse:
The problems come in when folks don't want to do the work to make sure they are recruiting qualified applicants. They wait for Malik Jackson with an engineering degree from Howard to walk in off the street and apply for a job. But you see Malik heard from his frat brothers that company never hires Black folks, plus, when he was doing his rounds of interviewing they never came to Howard. So folks sit around and wonder "Why are we not getting qualifed Black applicants? There must not be any! Since the receptionists' baby daddy went to GA Tech on a football scholarship for 2 years and majored in engineering, lets give him the job so that we can say we hired one this year." Now, they've just lowered their standards, all under the guise of AA. Then when baby daddy can't perform, they either carry him (and his white co-workers begin to say you can't fire someone in a protected class) or they fire him and everyone says "See! Told you Affirmative Action did not work!!"

Folks will take into consideration things like culturally biased tests (like the SAT--the validity of that is a whole 'nother story though!), inferior inner city schools, etc. and make allowances to level the playing field.

Sorry for the book!! I hope it all makes sense!

LOL Eclipse!!!!

This was my understanding all along. You have just solidified the reasoning behind my response to others who come to me with the same questions. Thanks.

"Rather it seems that if you have less than a 3.0, but yet you have something else to bring to the table then you will still be admitted. Which in my opinion is totally fair.."

I totally agree with you Inspired One.

[Inspired One]

This is in response to Serenity_24. In my opinion (which could very well be wrong) Affirmative Action has never really been set up so that say, you have to have a 3.0 to get into a school, but for minorities you can have a 2.5. Rather it seems that if you have less than a 3.0, but yet you have something else to bring to the table then you will still be admitted. Which in my opinion is totally fair...life isn't black and white, GPAs and SAT scores. There is always a story behind everything and it's never fair to only look at certain indicators. What angers me about the situation is that while certain folk will complain about affirmative action in one sense, they won't complain about legacy clauses that allow children of alums special treatment, nor will they complain about letting star athletes in that don't meet basic requirements....