Ebay: the Napster of Greek insignia

[SAEalumnus]

I know this has probably been beaten to death already, but when you see a badge or anything else from your GLO being sold on ebay, there are only a few things you can actually do about it. Most headquarters don't have funds available to "rescue" these items.

1) If you have an ebay account, you can email ("send a question") to the seller advising them of copyright and trademark issues.

2) You can report the violation to ebay starting on this page.

3) You can report the violation to your headquarters to (hopefully) have a representative of HQ contact the seller directly.

4) If you are a representative of HQ (i.e. you have authority to act either as the copyright/trademark owner or an agent of the owner), you can enroll in ebay's Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program, information about which is available here.

Unfortunately, unless you're a rep from HQ and can actually take/enforce legal action against the seller, there's nothing else you can do about it. At that point, it's up to either ebay to terminate the auction (assuming you reported it), or to the seller to voluntarily terminate the auction (which they usually won't do).

In most cases, anything bearing the name, initials, coat of arms, badge, other insignia, or combination of any of these are protected by copyrights and/or trademarks and/or patents. The major problem is, even though ebay's administrators are fully aware that auctions of these types of items violate the rights of our fraternities and sororities, they continue to allow the auctions to continue. These people are worse than napster as far as I'm concerned! The most any of us can do is to get our HQs to enroll in ebay's VeRO program and have someone continually monitor the site to catch violations.

The following links might be of use to you...

For auctions involving copyright issues, click here.

For auctions involving trademarked issues, click here.

For auctions involving alumni directories or other contact lists, click here.

[SigkapAlumWSU]

Thank you for posting this information. I think that a lot of people don't realize that it is a copyright/trademark issue as well. I think that the info will be put to good use!

[33girl]

I know this is a serious topic, but the title just cracked me up. I have been having a bummer night so I needed the laugh. Thanks! (plus, thanks for filling us in on all the legal stuff)

[wptw]

I understand the moral objection to selling badges on ebay. But how exactly is it a copyright infringement?

The answer is... it's not. That's why ebay has taken no action despite massive protest from the GLOs. Selling unauthorized reproductions of a GLO's mark or copyrighted material is indeed illegal. Selling the ORIGINAL mark or copyrighted material is perfectly legal. The owner of the mark was in theory already paid for their intellectual property when the item was sold to the original owner, and that individual item is now free and clear of any restrictions from that point forward.

If what you say is true, then it would be illegal to sell Coca-Cola pins because that bears the Coca-Cola trademark. And it would be illegal to sell ANY pre-owned book because that's copyrighted material.

Folks, you have to separate your moral outrage from the law.

wptw

[FuzzieAlum]

Folks, you have to separate your moral outrage from the law.

Thanks, I think we know the difference already, though.

You're absolutely right that it's not illegal to sell a pin in the same way it's not illegal to sell a polar bear Coca Cola refrigerator.

The difference is that Coke loves having a market for its insignia, since they profit from it. As long as the original manufacturer pays the appropriate fees and royalty, they're happy. A big reselling market just increases the number of collectors. Fraternities and sororities, on the other hand, have no desire to have a collector's market. This doesn't make it illegal - this just means that you have to expect GLOs to try to stop the resale of pins.

However, no matter who has possession of a pin, or no matter how much they paid for it, the legal owner is the national fraternity. Every member when they get a pin signs a legal document to this effect, and however the pin strays into someone else'e hand, be it by a grandkid who doesn't know better or a deliberate thief, the fraternity can choose to reclaim their property at any time. Every pin, at least those made after a certain time, has markings on the back that the fraternity can use to trace it back to the original badge holder.

Question (for you Greeks trying to protect your pins, not collectors): Have any Nationals tried to reclaim their pins by the argument that pins are stolen property?

Are there any lawyers here who are qualified to comment on this?

Also, given that so many politicians are Greek, what is the possibility of introducing legislation that would protect badges from being resold?

[SAEalumnus]

wtpw,

Not only are you completely and utterly WRONG here, but I know for a fact that not only are you a collector (possible seller) of things Greek, but that you also are in the habit of illegally trading esoteric rituals of fraternities and sororities. Don't bother denying this because I've seen your posts on other boards. As for your claim of legality, here are some things with which you should become quickly familiar about my fraternity...


From the US Patent and Trademark Office website :


Typed Drawing


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Word Mark SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON
Goods and Services IC 200. US 200. G & S: Indicating membership in a national fraternal organization.
FIRST USE: 18560309.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 18560309
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 76198084
Filing Date January 23, 2001
Owner (APPLICANT) Sigma Alpha Epsilon CORPORATION ILLINOIS 1865 Sheridan Road Evanston ILLINOIS 60204
Attorney of Record Angelo J. Bufalino
Prior Registrations 0538680;0617624;2346560;AND OTHERS
Type of Mark COLLECTIVE MEMBERSHIP MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The Coat of Arms]

Translations THE GREEK WORDS APPEARING IN THE MARK ARE "SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON"
Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: ESTABLISHMENT AND MAINTENANCE OF MEMBERSHIP IN A NATIONAL COLLEGIATE FRATERNITY.
FIRST USE: 18970300.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 18970300
Mark Drawing Code (2) DESIGN ONLY
Design Search Code 010501 031519 031525 050503 230501 240102 240907 241302 250125 280105
Serial Number 71670125
Filing Date July 16, 1954
Registration Number 0617623
Registration Date December 13, 1955
Owner (REGISTRANT) SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON FRATERNITY CORPORATION ILLINOIS 1856 SHERIDAN ROAD EVANSTON ILLINOIS 60204
Attorney of Record ANGELO J. BUFALINO
Prior Registrations 0538680
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK. COLLECTIVE SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19960215
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The Greek Initials of the name: Sigma Alpha Epsilon]

Goods and Services IC 014. US 028. G & S: FRATERNITY BADGES, LAPEL BUTTONS, SCARF, LAPEL, AND BREAST PINS, CUFF LINKS, TIE CLASPS, CHARMS, FINGER RINGS, BELT BUCKLES, AND ORNAMENTAL SHIELDS, ALL MADE OF PRECIOUS METAL.
FIRST USE: 19170301.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19170301
Mark Drawing Code (2) DESIGN ONLY
Design Search Code 280105
Serial Number 71589597
Filing Date December 19, 1949
Registration Number 0538680
Registration Date February 27, 1951
Owner (REGISTRANT) SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON FRATERNITY CORPORATION ILLINOIS 1856 SHERIDAN ROAD EVANSTON ILLINOIS
Prior Registrations 0240149
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECTION 8(10-YR) 20010316.
Renewal 3RD RENEWAL 20010316
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The Badge]

Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: ESTABLISHMENT AND MAINTENANCE OF MEMBERSHIP IN A NATIONAL COLLEGIATE FRATERNITY.
FIRST USE: 18560300.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 18560300
Mark Drawing Code (2) DESIGN ONLY
Design Search Code 020309 030101 051502 260109 260721 280105
Serial Number 71670126
Filing Date July 16, 1954
Registration Number 0617624
Registration Date December 13, 1955
Owner (REGISTRANT) SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON FRATERNITY CORPORATION ILLINOIS 1856 SHERIDAN ROAD EVANSTON ILLINOIS 60204
Attorney of Record ANGELO J. BUFALINO
Prior Registrations 0538680
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK. COLLECTIVE SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19960207
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The Greek Initials of the motto: Phi Alpha]

Word Mark A
Goods and Services IC 014. US 028. G & S: FRATERNITY BADGES AND LAPEL BUTTONS WHOLLY OR IN PART OF PRECIOUS METAL. FIRST USE: 18560000.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 18560000
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code 280105
Serial Number 71302055
Filing Date May 31, 1930
Registration Number 0277162
Registration Date November 11, 1930
Owner (REGISTRANT) SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON CORPORATION ILLINOIS 1856 SHERIDAN ROAD EVANSTON ILLINOIS 60204
Attorney of Record ANGELO J. BUFALINO
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 12C. SECT 15. SECTION 8(10-YR) 20010314.
Renewal 4TH RENEWAL 20010314
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the 2001 Fraternity Laws of Sigma Alpha Epsilon (National Laws)

TITLE XIII. General Rules.

Section 66. Insignia of Membership.

Subsection A. Membership Badge

1. A membership badge shall be loaned by the Fraternity to each initiate and, upon payment of such sum as may be fixed by the Supreme Council, to any member in good standing. In either case, the membership badge shall remain the property of the Fraternity and shall be worn only by members in good standing. For due cause communicated in writing to a member, the membership badge may be recalled by the Fraternity.

2. The use of the membership badge or its design upon any article of jewelry is forbidden, except by authorization of the Supreme Council.

Section 67. Official Jeweler(s). When the Fraternity has entered into contract with an official jeweler(s), it shall be unlawful for any member of the Fraternity to display or offer for sale in any Sigma Alpha Epsilon Chapter Collegiate house or elsewhere any badges, jewelry or other articles, bearing the crest, coat of arms or letters of the Fraternity, except as the representative of the official jeweler(s) with whom such contracts have been made.


So as you can see, wptw (and others), anything bearing any form of the insignia of Sigma Alpha Epsilon, singularly or in combination, in whole or in part, remains protected under trademark and copyright. The sale of any such items is therefore a clear violation of the rights of the Fraternity whether done by a member of the Fraternity or any third party, yourself included, except in such case as the seller is an authorized jeweler of the Fraternity which I would hazard a guess that you are not. The Sigma Alpha Epsilon Headquarters made its official position on this quite clear in the Fall 2001 edition of The Record (our quarterly publication). Find a copy and read it for yourself. Just so you know, any violation of the Fraternity's rights that gets reported to the Fraternity Service Center is immediately forwarded to the Fraternity's General Counsel. His name is Frank Ginocchio and he may be reached at fginocchio@sae.net, or by phone at 800-233-1856, X 214. Go ahead and ask him if he minds you or anyone else selling the Fraternity's property without authorization. If you feel so justified in your position, then I'll expect a transcript of your conversation with him posted here shortly. If you're too afraid to talk to the Fraternity's chief lawyer, then it's probably a good sign that what you're doing is illegal (hint: it is). Good luck!

[wptw]

This doesn't make it illegal - this just means that you have to expect GLOs to try to stop the resale of pins.

Agreed. That's what I meant by separating the legal issue from the moral issue.

However, no matter who has possession of a pin, or no matter how much they paid for it, the legal owner is the national fraternity.

Simply not true. The badge is given in consideration of some kind of fee. Call it a "lifelong lease" if you want, but I bought my pin, I own my pin, and I'll do whatever I please with my pin. The burden to prove otherwise is on the GLO, and so far no group has come close to proving it (and not for lack of trying either).

Every member when they get a pin signs a legal document to this effect.

I didn't. And I'm curious to see what (if anything) the members who belong to GLOs with lifelong lease policies signed. I seriously doubt it is a legal document. And even if it is, how does this apply to badges being sold on ebay which for the most part are from the early 20th century? You're telling me these GLOs have filing cabinets brimming with notarized lifelong lease documents from the 1920s?

Every pin, at least those made after a certain time, has markings on the back that the fraternity can use to trace it back to the original badge holder.

Again, not true. A great many of the more modern GLO badges are not engraved or marked at all except for the manufacturer's trademark and perhaps gold content (much to the collector's dismay since we always try to find out how old they are).

Have any Nationals tried to reclaim their pins by the argument that pins are stolen property?

This is outrageous! I buy my badge in 1930, tomorrow I die and my children inherit my estate. They decide to sell off some of my personal items, and 70 years later you're going to tell them they STOLE this pin? Ludicrous.


I'm not even getting into the moral issue. I'm just trying (unsuccessfully as always) to make people see past their rage so they can put together a realistic and effective action plan. These "my GLO owns the badge you're selling" emails are a huge joke among dealers.

wptw

[wptw]

SAEactive: You could have saved yourself a lot of cutting and pasting. I don't dispute that the SAE badge is protected property under copyright law. I am saying that selling an original mark (not a reproduction) is not in violation of that protection. There's a difference.

Bottom line is, if you're right and I'm wrong, then at some point in the last 4 years since GLOs first started going crazy over badges on ebay, SOMEONE would have successfully gotten them removed as a matter of policy. Ebay has a lot of lawyers, and they've looked at this carefully. The GLOs just don't have a legal leg to stand on. That's a fact.

I know for a fact that not only are you a collector (possible seller) of things Greek, but that you also are in the habit of illegally trading esoteric rituals of fraternities and sororities. Don't bother denying this because I've seen your posts on other boards.

Oh no! I've been outed! The horror!

Yup, I'm a collector. I've sold a few badges on ebay and I've bought hundreds. As for illegally trading rituals, that I deny. But I certainly have acquired GLO rituals and related materials for my personal use and study. And I would never reveal any of it publicly out of respect for the individual groups and the greek system as a whole. Nothing illegal about that.

And since we're on the subject, better get your head on straight and figure out who your real enemy is. While you're flexing your muscles at me, there's a crazy self-proclaimed minister out there who DOES intend to reveal as much ritual information as he can get his hands on. And SAE was one of the first rituals he received, as you probably know if you've spent any time at that other message board.

wptw

[SAEalumnus]

I know exactly whom you're referring to. That individual was booted off of greekchat quite a while ago. I'm not worried about his petty crusade of self-righteousness.

To address you comment, there is NO difference in selling an original vs selling a reproduction. The design is what's copyrighted and trademarked, not just the physical object. Selling anything bearing the design, whether original or not, is still a violation of copyright and/or trademark.

The problem is, most national headquarters don't exactly have huge numbers of people working in their offices. Since their primary concern is the proper administration of the Fraternity's affiairs, and not tracking down some wannabe who's trying to make a buck off of Fraternity property, this sort of thing usually gets put on the back burner. That isn't to say that nothing can be done. If you'll notice here, you'll see that the Delta Phi Fraternity has taken a proactive step in removing auctions from ebay that violate their rights. It takes time for a Fraternity Office to pursue such matters, time some offices simply can't afford to spend -- BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT LEGAL!!! That's the point.

[FuzzieAlum]

Simply not true. The badge is given in consideration of some kind of fee. Call it a "lifelong lease" if you want, but I bought my pin, I own my pin, and I'll do whatever I please with my pin. The burden to prove otherwise is on the GLO, and so far no group has come close to proving it (and not for lack of trying either).

The fee has zero to do with it. I pay for my apartment - can I go to a court of law and prove I own it? No, because I have signed a contract stating that I am a renter, etc. I have known members who have been required to give back their pin by a court of law upon losing their membership, and I would be interested to hear of evidence to the contrary.

I didn't. And I'm curious to see what (if anything) the members who belong to GLOs with lifelong lease policies signed. I seriously doubt it is a legal document. And even if it is, how does this apply to badges being sold on ebay which for the most part are from the early 20th century? You're telling me these GLOs have filing cabinets brimming with notarized lifelong lease documents from the 1920s?

It's quite possible this is a new policy. I know I signed something to this effect in 1995. However, national fratenities do keep a copy of all these legal documents (they're signed, they're legal) for many purposes. You'd better believe they have bulging files.

Most of the badges I see on eBay are not from the early 20th century, more like the middle of it. It is entirely possible that such documents were not being signed in the time frame some of these badges are from. That doesn't mean that some aren't recent enough to have them. And as you don't even believe such documents exist, I'm sure you don't bother to verify whether the badge in question is protected by one or not.

Again, not true. A great many of the more modern GLO badges are not engraved or marked at all except for the manufacturer's trademark and perhaps gold content (much to the collector's dismay since we always try to find out how old they are).

Speaking for my own sorority, each badge has a unique badge number. Although the member's name and chapter are no longer engraved, they each have a unique member number on the back.

If I buy a stereo from you and it turns out to be stolen, I still have to return the property. It doesn't matter whether I knew it was stolen or not. And the same applies to my grandkids - even if they didn't intend to steal my badge, they sure did. But most of us wouldn't mind if they simply kept it as a memory of us. It's when it becomes just a pretty toy to be sold that we object.

You may find us owners a joke, but we find you dealers beyond joking. It's pathetic to collect the pins of an organization you don't belong to. I can't even begin to imagine wanting such a thing. We are even more sickened by Greeks who feel they have a right to others' badges.

My point is - if we don't have the law on our side yet, we plan to get it there.

[SAEalumnus]

Originally posted by SAEactive
Just so you know, any violation of the Fraternity's rights that gets reported to the Fraternity Service Center is immediately forwarded to the Fraternity's General Counsel. His name is Frank Ginocchio and he may be reached at fginocchio@sae.net, or by phone at 800-233-1856, X 214. Go ahead and ask him if he minds you or anyone else selling the Fraternity's property without authorization. If you feel so justified in your position, then I'll expect a transcript of your conversation with him posted here shortly. If you're too afraid to talk to the Fraternity's chief lawyer, then it's probably a good sign that what you're doing is illegal (hint: it is). Good luck!

I'll be waiting for details of that conversation...

[wptw]

The Sigma Alpha Epsilon Headquarters made its official position on this quite clear in the Fall 2001 edition of The Record (our quarterly publication).

That tells me nothing. OK, I am making it my official position that I own the Island of Guam. What, you mean I still don’t own it? But I made it my official position!

You still have to substantiate illegal use of the mark. The Delta Phi example you cite also tells me nothing unless they have successfully used this to stop a badge auction. This action was taken to prohibit the sale of unauthorized producers putting the Delta Phi mark on their product – decals, T-shirts, pocketwatches, etc. It still does not apply to a badge which is an original item, legally produced by an authorized entity and legally sold to a member.

His name is Frank Ginocchio and he may be reached at fginocchio@sae.net, or by phone at 800-233-1856, X 214.

But here’s a serious question: I am sure Mr. Ginocchio is a fine attorney. Why has he not been successful in removing all the SAE badges from ebay? SAE badges are one of the most commonly listed on ebay (not surprising based on membershipnumbers), appearing at a rate of 2 per week! If I’m so wrong about this, where is the progress on this front after FOUR YEARS?

If you feel so justified in your position, then I'll expect a transcript of your conversation with him posted here shortly. If you're too afraid to talk to the Fraternity's chief lawyer, then it's probably a good sign that what you're doing is illegal (hint: it is). Good luck! I'll be waiting for details of that conversation...I'll be waiting for details of that conversation...

OK, Columbo. You wait there and I'll get that right over to you. Seriously, does this high testosterone posturing really work on anyone?

wptw

[wptw]

Speaking for my own sorority, each badge has a unique badge number. Although the member's name and chapter are no longer engraved, they each have a unique member number on the back.

Then I’d guess you are a Pi Phi. That’s one of very few groups who do this.

If I buy a stereo from you and it turns out to be stolen, I still have to return the property.

But you’ve got to PROVE the stereo was stolen. Hard to do when I’ve got the receipt that says I paid for it.

You may find us owners a joke, but we find you dealers beyond joking.

I’m not a dealer. Pay attention. I am a collector and a member of an NIC fraternity.

It's pathetic to collect the pins of an organization you don't belong to. I can't even begin to imagine wanting such a thing. We are even more sickened by Greeks who feel they have a right to others' badges.

You say tomayto. I say tomahto. Diverse opinions are one of the great things about the greek community. That is, unless you subscribe to the stereotype that we all think, dress and act alike.

My point is - if we don't have the law on our side yet, we plan to get it there.

That’s an admirable goal. If GLOs and GLO members start thinking and acting pragmatically and rationally on this issue, then you may indeed. Right now, you're just spinning your wheels.

wptw

[FuzzieAlum]

Then I’d guess you are a Pi Phi. That’s one of very few groups who do this.

Nope. From what you've said up until now I would have assumed you knew a lot about Greek life. But one look at my scren name should tell you what group I'm in.

But you’ve got to PROVE the stereo was stolen. Hard to do when I’ve got the receipt that says I paid for it.

It's not at all difficult to prove a stereo is stolen! Electronics, like many expensive items, have unique serial numbers. If the other kept his/her warranty information, that's that. Of course, I will admit that this is dependent on the thief not filing it off. And I don't mean to suggest the purchaser is punished; they ought to be compensated for their money, which doesn't necessarily happen.

I did say, and I do believe, that there is something wrong in collecting other's pins. Nevertheless, I don't think this should be an ad hominem argument. You probably could care less if I like you personally, and it doesn't change the validity of anyone's arguments.

I think Greeks have been "spinning their wheels" on this because it has only recently become a big issue. Until eBay and the WWW came along, collecting was more difficult. And only now are Greeks really aware of how many of their badges are out there. That's why they are requiring members to sign that the badge is not their property, printing awareness-raising articles in their magazines, and the like. Greeks have a lot of issues facing them and for a fraternity fighting to keep its insurance it may not be the most important one. But there are a lot of Greeks out there, and I believe that they will get somewhere eventually.

[wptw]

OK, Alpha Xi Delta then. None of my AZD badges have a member number on them. Most of the older ones are engraved with the owner's name though.

Can anyone post the actual text from one these lifelong lease agreements? I've heard many paraphrased synopses, but I have never seen the actual wording. My guess is that these documents are just signed affirmations of GLO policy, and not a legal and binding lease agreement. If anyone has the actual text to prove otherwise, please do.

Greeks have a lot of issues facing them and for a fraternity fighting to keep its insurance it may not be the most important one.

Excellent point. GLOs have a LOT of issues facing them: declining membership, chapter house rapes, dead pledges, racism, anti-greek sentiment on the rise, lawsuits, charters being pulled, rituals being revealed on the internet. And what are you spending your BTUs on? Badges on ebay!

What's that old expression about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic?


wptw