Integration or Segregation

[The BLUEPRINT]

I was talking this week-end and an interesting topic came up in the conversation. The person I was talking to stated that segregation was better for Black people then integration. His reasoning was that Black people were more self-sufficient as a people. Meaning that we had our own hospitals, restaurants, schools, and etc...

Everyone please give your opinion on this subject, especially all you members of Black greek organizations.

[SoTrue1920]

I think that both systems have benefits and drawbacks. I can't speak for segregation because I'm the first post-integration baby in my family.

I think having the freedom to live where we want and to shape our own destinies is something that we should never take lightly. If we choose to live in predominately minority communities, attend HBCUs, etc., then that's fine. But so is choosing to live in an integrated community or attending a PWI.

When you look at it, we're still living in a segregated society. The majority of us live in communities where we're the predominant ethnic group. We're members of predominately African American fraternities and sororities. Most of us don't attend integrated churches, and I can't say for sure, but it seems that HBCUs are doing as well now as they were pre-integration.

I'd be interested to see the numbers comparing black business ownership pre-1954 and after.

[SeriousSigma22]

Sotrue1920,

I agree with most of your observations and comparisons of integration or segregation, however, I believe that most African Americans or blacks (post 1960s) don't know anything about the struggles we faced and still face as members of the African American race. And it seems that a lot of black folks don't really care. Our communities are divided in many situations and most folks are just concerned with themselves. We have become just like so many other Euroamerican cultures in America! I believe that integration started off very positive, however, many people on both sides of the race or cultural fence are just plan selfish and blissfully ignorant about the African American race and we (most black folks) are just still receiving the scraps from the white man's table.

There are still so many pockets of African Americans that are consumed by the cycle of poverty and they really don't see a way out. They really haven't benefited from integration and they are bitter. I think that they are justified in their attitude - don't you?

I don't mean to sound angry, however, I just needed to get that off from my chest!

Respond with you thoughts!

Serioussigma22!

[TRSimon]

This is a really deep conversation, Soror Blueprint! Here are my thoughts...


Segregation (the forced, legal type) was an ugly and evil institution that sought to dehumanize and humiliate African Americans in the aftermath of slavery. The fact that we had no other choice but to support our own businesses and institutions was a positive side effect of a highly negative situation. Black people had to encourage and respect each other's achievements, because we were still considered animals and property by larger society. This meant that we learned of our history and had pride in ourselves and accomplishments in society. I feel that segregation shifted our focus from our internal problems, but according to my folks, particularly my mother, who witnessed the police brutality and separate classrooms and restrooms of the Jim Crow South, it was nothing to write home about.

We should be more determined that our children learn of their history and heritage and learn to respect themselves and others. I have seen a lot of that lost in my own lifetime, because PWIs aren't set up to touch that rich heritage except for during February, and then you get Harriet Tubman and MLK. Sometimes I start talking about the way things are and have been with our government and most of my PWI educated friends are totally clueless. I was educated in PW elementary and high schools, but my folks always made sure I knew the kind of people I came from.


TRSimon

[SoTrue1920]

Hey SeriousSigma!

Let's see if I can touch on a couple of your issues:

Originally posted by SeriousSigma22
I believe that most African Americans or blacks (post 1960s) don't know anything about the struggles we faced and still face as members of the African American race. And it seems that a lot of black folks don't really care.

Who's to blame for that? Surely integration isn't only at fault. Why can't we take it upon ourselves to learn more about the way things used to be, and making sure others know what life was like prior to desegregation?

And another thing -- while I understand the call to always remember our history and where we came from, at some point we need to do something other than remembering. I didn't say forget -- but a person who only looks back is bound to trip and fall eventually. At some point, we need to take our knowledge and do something constructive with it.

There are still so many pockets of African Americans that are consumed by the cycle of poverty and they really don't see a way out. They really haven't benefited from integration and they are bitter. I think that they are justified in their attitude - don't you?

No, I can't honestly say that they are justified. Is their feeling of disenfranchisement justified? Yes. Feelings of helplessness? Sure. But anger?...Okay, fine. But then what? What will your (their) anger do in the long run except consume them? Once they're consumed by anger, do you think that the majority will take a moment to help them see their way out of it? When will they take that anger and do something constructive with it?

I grew up in public housing in Atlanta. My parents had nine children, and were married for nearly 50 years. Every last one of us graduated high school, four of us went on to four year colleges, and I'm in the process of obtaining a Master's degree. Again, it's a matter of choice -- whether you'll let your surroundings define who you are or whether you'll try to bring yourself -- and other folks -- out of it. I don't mean some lily-white fantasy of pulling ourselves up by our (collective) bootstraps, but at some point, we really have to stop using the happenstance of our birth as a justification for our failure to make good choices.

I'm NOT saying that societal forces aren't real. They're very real, and are great forces to be reckoned with, but heck, let's at least RECKON with them, instead of being passive participants in our future.

The way I see integration/desegregation is that it was a means of opening up many different avenues of choice for African Americans. But it's still up to us to decide whether to actively make that choice, whatever it might be.

[NinjaPoodle]

I really had to think on this one before I posted a reply. All of you ladies touched on points I was thinking about. I'll just say this. There are good and bad points to both integration and segregation but because of integration , I have the CHOICE to live, go to school, shop, eat, etc.. where ever I CHOOSE. My parents and grand parents fought for that CIVIL RIGHT and I will exercise at my discretion(sp?) when, where, how, and with who. I'll be honest, many days I hate this country and it's track record not only with us but with Jews, Asians, Hispanics, Irish, etc.. I'm having a lot of emotions right now so I'll finish here. I'm just glad Rosa Parks stayed in her seat for me and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. lived and died for me. I appreciate it EVERY SINGLE DAY OF MY LIFE.

(oops, sorry about the type-o)

[TRSimon]

Originally posted by SoTrue1920
And another thing -- while I understand the call to always remember our history and where we came from, at some point we need to do something other than remembering. I didn't say forget -- but a person who only looks back is bound to trip and fall eventually. At some point, we need to take our knowledge and do something constructive with it.

People should know their history, because the world and its situations did not begin with any of us. I don't think people should live in the past, but there is a strong importance for African Americans to know what they have accomplished and can accomplish in the face of adversity. History is important. When you know better, you do better. The most ideal situation is applied knowledge to present circumstances, but once again, if people are clueless as to who they are and what kind of society they are dealing with, they often end up running around in circles.


Just my observation,
TRSimon

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by TRSimon


People should know their history, because the world and its situations did not begin with any of us. I don't think people should live in the past, but there is a strong importance for African Americans to know what they have accomplished and can accomplish in the face of adversity. History is important. When you know better, you do better. The most ideal situation is applied knowledge to present circumstances, but once again, if people are clueless as to who they are and what kind of society they are dealing with, they often end up running around in circles.


Just my observation,
TRSimon

Seems like we're saying the same thing, TRSimon.

[The BLUEPRINT]

I want to thank all of you ladies for replying to the thread. I'm a firm believer that you should learn something new everyday and thanks to all of you great thinkers, I had my lesson today. It's amazing what you learn when you take a step back and just listen or read in this case!

[SeriousSigma22]

Sorors and friends,

I just finished reading all of your responses to this thread and I commend your willingness to provide strong comments and several sides to these two delicate issues. I must stand in agreement with my sorors, TRSimon and Ninjapoodle. We have to know our history to continue as a race/culture. I have been teaching in the classroom for ten (high school -history and social studies)years now and every year our African American students show such blistful ignorance about their African roots, rich history and culture. They act like being from Africa is a terrible thing. They walk around using words that would make our ancestors turn over in their graves. And a large percentage of them are ashamed of anything that is associated with being an African American. Many of them are content with a "C" or even a "D" and most of them don't have a clue about preparing for their futures. They blindly read and believe a lot of information from their caucasian teachers and they will go so far as to challenge or disrespect many of their African American teachers.

I restate that I'm not totally against integration, however, I believe that we as members of the African American race need to wake up before our youth is totally assimilated into the Euroamerican culture.

Folks we need to proceed with caution!
Serioussigma22

[TRSimon]

Originally posted by SoTrue1920


Seems like we're saying the same thing, TRSimon.

Pretty much (unless you want to split hairs on whether it is more important to learn history or to move toward the future), must be a Vancouver thing

[NinjaPoodle]

I'm bumping this topic back up because it's a GOOD topic and I am interested in other's opinions.

[Tenacious1922]

I have to agree that we as black people need to know what our true place in history is. And truthfully that means doing your own research, because you are just not going to learn about it in school! You may learn about Malcolm, Parks and King, but after that...it is back to the slaves in Africa bit. I grew up in N.Y. where we were the first blacks on the block with a neighborhood of people from Poland. One of the comments my neighbor said to my mother was, "We do not care how you keep the inside of your house, but just make sure you keep the outside looking good". Now...why did she assume that we would be nasty? But believe it or not she became a grandmother to me, and we are still close with her other living family members. We even had some one spray paint the "N" word in red, in our drive way and this was in the late "70"'s as well when we moved in. So I try to hold on to the thought that one day all of this will end, but sometimes it gets hard to believe that. Especially when we are still being passed over for promotions, refused service and the list goes on and on. I think that in some ways society still wants us to be ashamed of the fact that we are black, but time and time again...other races take from African-Americans. Everything from inventions to music to food and again the list goes on and on. But once a white person thinks that it is cool then all of a sudden it is acceptable! But I do believe that without intergration we would not have made it even this far. At least we have choices. But I do say the next time you see a white co-worker show up late for work, work half-a$# etc. Please don't think that as a minority that you could get away with this same behavior. Because regardless of intergration between the races, you would probably be the first one out the door.

[RHOyal-Silence]

while i was at a certain high school for a while, i was actually experiencing modern day segregation. this was the only high school in the county (i come from a very small place) and for it to be the ONLY high school in the county, there were only a handful of white students. the reason for this?...

well there were many, many whites in the county, however, they sent their kids to the private schools or to a school in a neighboring county.

now my experience at this school: it felt like a family. teachers cared, they instilled values needed for young black children.

however, money was not being put in the school because the "influential" parents were not there. School buses were always broke down. there would literally be about 3 bus loads piled on one bus. books were old, raggedy and sometimes outdated. supplies for teachers were almost non-existence.

neighboring counties were investing in laptops for students, building new school facilities and so on. it's been found out that the public school money was being spent on the private schools where most of the county's white students were attending.

now why do u think that is?


my other experience: i spent my last 2 years in a public school where blacks were the minorities. this school had some of the best facilities, programs, educational materials and so on.

my point: if the black community as a whole (parents, teachers, lawyers, business men, preachers, senior citizens) pulled together and raised some hell, money, joined the pta, planned fundraisers, volunteered, then my first high school would have been a success.

i believe in learning our history and being proud of my history. however, for supporters of segregation, it can only work if there is real unity in the african american community. it did not work in my community becaue of the lack of care.

(i hope this came across clear enough because it was kind of wordy! )