American Women and Relationships?

[James]

Some background:

Someone I had met at work had gotten married to this woman from Russia that he had been a sort of pen pal with. And I remembered that another guy I knew had been on vacation in Russia and did the same thing.

And then I recalled yet another conversation (this is a seperate thing) with a guy that was saying they were arranging some marriages where the man would bring the woman over and be married for 2 years for a great deal of money. And that the man would decline the money or make some spliiting arrangement because he wanted to stay married.

The two guys I first mentioned are good looking guys in good physical shape (i.e. they train a lot) and are reasonably successful in their fields. A good catch you would think, and they did indeed date a lot. Neither had ever been married, had no children and are in their 30's.

In conversations with these guys they say they prefer the foreign culture to Americanized women because they seem to be more famlily orientated with better relationship skills. And cited the lack of a lot of these skills as the reason why dating Americanized women is hard.

I say Americanized menaing women that have embraced mainstream American vlaues and behaviors.

This has been echoed by other men that I have talked to who also believe this.

So I was wondering, especially from some of the ladies that have some trans generational experience, if they have noticed that relationship skills are on a decline among females?

We'll leave men out of it this time lol.

Needless to say neither man mentioned above was very popular with a lot of American women when they came back.

[twinstars]

Would you specify what you mean by "relationship skills"? What exactly are American women lacking? What don't they do that foreigners ARE doing?

My initial thought... Maybe foreign women are more inclined to defer to men (are willing to be the submissive partner and let the guy make decisions/call shots) .... Maybe they are more likely to be comfortable and satisfied being "professional housewives" because of the cultures they come from.

[James]

Well the women seem to work, both over there and here and come from parts of the world that have no where near our standard of living.

Maybe its an intangible? Less Game playing? Less baggage or issues?

They say the women are strongwilled. *shrug*

I guess I'll have to date more overseas to find some empirical evidence for yall . .. I'll do it just for GC .

But seriously, if there has ben a change in the last few decades will that mean that more American men will be looking for more foreign brides? Or Culturally purer americans?

[RxyChrldr]

James, I think perhaps women in the US today are more career-oriented in the past, and this may attribute to their "lack of relationship skills" as you so put it..or that they sometimes don't have a relationship as priority #1.

If we think back to the "traditional" American dream (circa 1950) it would probably be that common nuclear family..i.e., having a husband, wife, 2 kids, and a dog in a nice little white picket-fenced house and 2 cars. The shift towards present day goals is more "success" oriented, being well off and later on being able to provide for a family. I know for a lot of girls my age, career/success is priority one, then starting a family so that we're stable and able to provide for ourselves, not be dependent on a man/relationship. I know I most definitely plan to be graduated with college before marriage, and be stable in my career before bringing children into the world. Relationships are *not* my number one priority.

Just my 2 cents

[carnation]

In my ESL class, there were women from all over the world who had come here to be married to strangers. Most of the women had been professionals in their countries and wanted to leave their countries for various reasons. The Colombian wanted to escape the violence there, one Chinese woman vowed she'd get out when her mother was forced to have an abortion, another Chinese woman was tired of the living conditions there...it varied greatly for all of them.

The American men that they married had never been married and though they were nice, were not the kind who would exactly be hot items on the marriage market. All were kind to their wives and it seemed as if the husbands and wives saw the marriages as a win-win deal where each person got something he or she really wanted.

In Georgia, we see this in reverse too...there are a lot of Hispanic men who marry American women just to get their citizenship more easily. Nine times out of ten, the women are really trashy, the type who look 60 years old at the age of 30. There are a lot of little half-Hispanic kids running around who I really feel sorry for because often the dads run off after they get their citizenship and these children who are usually Hispanic-looking are left in these crummy trailer parks with moms who just married the dads to have a husband. After that, the moms really resent the kids and what we're getting in the schools are tons of disturbed kids. The county south of here is going berserk.

I could not tell you how many birth certificates I've translated for Hispanic guys who are marrying these awful women. You ought to hear the women: "Yeah, Jo-say and me, we just want to git married now. I cain't talk none of that Spanish but his friend says he really loves me."

[James]

So Carnation, have you noticed any real differences over the years in the ways women relate to men and the skills they are learn for relationships?

[carnation]

I think that since I was in college, the women have become less desperate to "get" a guy...and when I was in college, they were less desperate to get a guy than in my mother's day. The only place I've recently seen the overeagerness to please men has been on college campuses with many more women than men.

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by James

But seriously, if there has ben a change in the last few decades will that mean that more American men will be looking for more foreign brides? Or Culturally purer americans?

Culturally pure? This is AMERICA. There is no such thing as "culturally pure" with respect to this country, and anyone who suggests otherwise should go find Matt Hale and join his congregation.

I think that one of the reasons that a lot of these men seek foreign brides is because they have this perception that American women are too headstrong, that we are too self-actualized, that we're entirely too independent. If a man sees these qualities as detrimental to forging a relationship, then maybe he needs to take a look at himself and stop placing the blame on women. I think men use these straw man arguments in order to frighten women into thinking that "If I decide to stand up for myself/work outside the home/maintain my independence, I'll never find a suitable mate." What I find most appaling is that these men have embraced the very same "Americanized attitudes" that they blame American women for embracing, but no one even gives them a sideways glance.

[aephi alum]

Originally posted by SoTrue1920


I think that one of the reasons that a lot of these men seek foreign brides is because they have this perception that American women are too headstrong, that we are too self-actualized, that we're entirely too independent. If a man sees these qualities as detrimental to forging a relationship, then maybe he needs to take a look at himself and stop placing the blame on women. I think men use these straw man arguments in order to frighten women into thinking that "If I decide to stand up for myself/work outside the home/maintain my independence, I'll never find a suitable mate." What I find most appaling is that these men have embraced the very same "Americanized attitudes" that they blame American women for embracing, but no one even gives them a sideways glance.

Hear hear!!

There are a lot of men out there who feel threatened by the idea of an independent-minded woman who has a career and other priorities than being a housewife - someone who went to college for something other than an "MRS degree". It's "ok" for men to have those attitudes, because they're men. We as women are expected to submit, stay home, cook and clean, and make babies.

I'm not that type of woman, and I've always made that abundantly clear. I didn't spend 5 years in school earning 2 degrees to be a housewife. Have I lost potential mates because of it? Yes, but I would not have wanted to be married to them. Instead I am married to a wonderful man who fully supports my decision to work and to continue to work once we start a family. (Besides, I'm terrible at cleaning. )

(I don't meant to insult any SAHM's out there - it's just not something I could do. )

[Steeltrap]

Originally posted by carnation
I could not tell you how many birth certificates I've translated for Hispanic guys who are marrying these awful women. You ought to hear the women: "Yeah, Jo-say and me, we just want to git married now. I cain't talk none of that Spanish but his friend says he really loves me."

CTHU. CTHU. CTHU.

All chuckles aside, SoTrue1920's point is excellent.
These men need to check themselves, not blame the woman.
But you know what -- if those men have resentment of good qualities such as independence, ability to think for themselves, et al -- let 'em go with the foreign woman. Means less chance for abuse for those of us who want reciprocal trust, love, partnership and companionship.

[SilverTurtle]

I have to agree with every response here:

I think the "lack in relationship skills" translates in man language to "not eager and willing to 'honor and obey' me, raise my kids, clean my house, cook my dinner...."

Even in my mom's time (early 1960's), the norm was to find a good husband. If women went to college, it was primarily to husband hunt, not get their education. That was just what was expected of you as a female. Then there was this wonderful era of rebellion and civil rights movements, including Women's Lib. People, men and women, were appalled at some of these ideas. They broke apart the family and were immoral. (Read Betty Friedan's the Feminie Mystique- it was terribly criticized for demoralizing family values. But to read it today, it's nothing special.)

Unfortunately, these ideals still exist to some level today. I personally think that some men are oftened threatened by independent, strong women because they don't know what their own role is suppossed to be in the relationship- how can they both be breadwinners? What will happen to the kids? What! you don't want kids? That's your job as a woman?!

Granted, this is a slowly dying mindset, but I mean slowly. And I support any family's decision to have one parent (mom or dad) be a full-time, stay at home parent. But I don't see this as the only option.

Anyways- I know I got off on a tangent there So, James, I think in most cases, the values and attributes the men you mentioned are/were seeking in a wife weren't available to them in American form, so they sought elsewhere.

It's also possible that the women they were dating in the States didn't see the men as desirable husband material, or simply didn't want husbands. Forcing them to look elsewhere.

*Edited to add this*
James, I know you said leave the men out of it, but really-- women have been dealing with men's lack of relationship (and general communication) skills for centuries. Women in America finally feel like they can say "No, I'm not dealing with your mind games, childishness, lack of communication skills...." whatever. And not be so chastized for it. So it's also very possible that the men you mentioned are the ones lacking in the relationship skills. And the women they were dating weren't having it. (To go along with my last paragraph above).

[justamom]

Ladies, I couldn't have said it better or added a single word!

Excellent post SilverTurtle!

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by SoTrue1920


Culturally pure? This is AMERICA. There is no such thing as "culturally pure" with respect to this country, and anyone who suggests otherwise should go find Matt Hale and join his congregation.

This is an excellent point - although the "melting pot" cliche is overworked and banal, this statement still rings true. 300-some odd years on this continent does not a culture make.

Originally posted by SoTrue1920
I think that one of the reasons that a lot of these men seek foreign brides is because they have this perception that American women are too headstrong, that we are too self-actualized, that we're entirely too independent. If a man sees these qualities as detrimental to forging a relationship, then maybe he needs to take a look at himself and stop placing the blame on women. I think men use these straw man arguments in order to frighten women into thinking that "If I decide to stand up for myself/work outside the home/maintain my independence, I'll never find a suitable mate." What I find most appaling is that these men have embraced the very same "Americanized attitudes" that they blame American women for embracing, but no one even gives them a sideways glance.

I think that, in a way, you too are making a strawman here. I think James's point isn't against the self-actualization of women - actually, I hope it's not - but more likely just a paradigmatic shift in relationship values.

"Relationship values" doesn't infer that career can't come first, or that the woman in a relationship can't fulfill herself through whatever means necessary - and it doesn't implicitly infer that she should be subservient to the man, or that the man can play the hypocrite and avoid his end of the deal.

While the foreign women may bring values to the table that are decidedly old-fashioned, and seem anachronistic to us, I don't know that the correct response to the OP is to reject the hypothesis for this reason.

Although I'm certain your generalization of men denying women as headstrong etc. certainly rings true in certain instances (we've all met that couple, whether they be grandparents or etc), I don't know that these gentlemen in question do the same - I don't personally equate 'family-oriented' with 'not career-oriented' . . .

Perhaps my lack of 'real-world' experience with maintaining a career and a family shines through here - but isn't it a fallacy of false dilemma to say it's one way or the other? Why can't a woman in a marriage situation be family-oriented, and still be self-actualized through a career and outside interests?

Help me out here if I'm wrong . . .

[ErikaXO]

It has been my experience that the kind of guys who like to order their wife out of a catalog are looking for a measure of control. Let's face it.....the majority of young, marriageable women in our country want more than to clean all day, have dinner on the table when their man gets home and then be ready to perform sexually when the dishes are done and he's had enough of ESPN for the night. And on the flip side, the new two-income standard has made it really difficult for those of us women who want to be stay home moms....not only do the men resent having to be the breadwinner (which was, after all, their traditional role) but other women look down on you as lazy or unmotivated or unskilled. There is a particular "control-freak" stereotype placed upon the men who import their wives from Asian countries where women are traditionally subservient.....

I do not believe women in this country lack "dating" skills. We simply want and expect more out of a man nowadays. We also want more for ourselves. It used to be that women NEEDED men.....we now have the luxury of marrying because we want to and are in love, not because we need to in order to survive financially or socially, or because we have to in order to have sex without social disapproval. We don't even need to be married to have kids now. I don't think men like this as much as they pretend they do. At first a lot of guys liked it that the women were out there hoofing it in the workplace, bringing in money and padding their lifestyles.....now they see that it changes the whole complexion of things. These poor girls in Russia need a man to take care of them.....they are desperate to escape from their lifestyle over there and are so grateful to come here that they will do anything for the man who "saved" them.

Sorry to rant but I have seen way too much of this.....I am so sick of hearing guys whine about how women are nowadays....if they would just decide what it is they want life would be a lot more pleasant for all involved.

[Eirene_DGP]

As far as "Americanized" women being less family oriented than internationals is a far cry from the truth. Being that the U.S is the most prosperous country in the world, most Women need to work in order to help support their families. I don't think I would ever pay someone to stay married to me if they didn't love me (In regards to the men who were willing to split money with Russian women so they wouldn't leave them)
At my university we have a LOT of internationals here who would do ANYTHING to stay in the U.S including tricking unsuspecting people into thinking they actually love them just to get their green card. I know of internationals who have married and divorced and went on their merry way. They don't even think of the people who are hurt, and lives that are ruined in the process. That should make you think twice before marrying anyone who is not a U.S citizen. My bf does not have his citizenship, so that is a definate factor in whether or not our relationship will ever move forward.