The Legality of Selling Pins?

KillarneyRose · #1 04-06-2002, 06:45 PM

I know this subject has been beaten to death, but I've never gotten a clear answer on it. Can anybody help?

Imagine this scenario

Suzy Sororitygirl is an initiate of ABC sorority. After a year or so she decided greek life isn't for her and quits. Instead of giving the badge back to National like she is supposed to, she decides to put it up for bid on Ebay. Now, keep in mind that it says in her pledge manual and it is the official position of ABC sorority that the badge is the property of ABC Sorority and is loaned out to the member in good standing for use during her lifetime. The Badge fee is for all intents and purposes a rental fee.

Now, how can Suzy legally sell something that doesn't belong to her? Even if Suzy sold the badge to a pin collector and the pin collector turned around and put it on Ebay, wouldn't that be the same as fencing stolen merchandise?

I am just thinking it is the same scenario if a guy would steal a wristwatch from someone and sell it to a pawn shop. Then a watch collector would buy it from the pawn shop and sell it on Ebay. I am reasonably certain that is considered dealing in stolen goods. So why is it different if we're talking a badge instead of a wristwatch?

Your thoughts please?

Kevin · #2 04-06-2002, 07:13 PM

Even if it was the legal property of the national GLO they'd still have to go through the trouble of reaquiring which often requires you to go to court. Not in the budget for most organizations.

I do know that some organizations have funds that they reserve to buy these badges back however (I think I heard Delta Zeta did this).

wptw · #3 04-06-2002, 07:25 PM

Suzy would have to have signed an actual legal lease agreement, which is written such that it is binding not just on Suzy, but on her heirs and assigns. I maintain that the so-called lifelong lease documents do not meet this criteria. Writing it in a pledge manual or in a statement of policy is not legally binding, even if Suzy's signature appears on it.

The document I signed to get my cable box is far more substantial than anything I've seen written by the GLOs.

Perhaps an actual lease document is what is required. What happens when you don't return your cable box? You get billed and eventually taken to collections over it - or so I'm told

But the GLO takes no such action when a member quits, dies or grows tired of their badge. Why?

wptw

33girl · #4 04-06-2002, 07:56 PM

I don't know how other groups do it, but when we terminated members or when they self terminated, they gave ALL their stuff back or several sisters went to her house/dorm and picked it up. The idea of a terminated member being in possession of letters or paraphernalia of any kind, let alone a pin, boggles my mind.

LeslieAGD · #5 04-06-2002, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wptw
Suzy would have to have signed an actual legal lease agreement, which is written such that it is binding not just on Suzy, but on her heirs and assigns.

So...why don't IHQs do this?

Quote:

Originally posted by 33girl
I don't know how other groups do it, but when we terminated members or when they self terminated, they gave ALL their stuff back or several sisters went to her house/dorm and picked it up. The idea of a terminated member being in possession of letters or paraphernalia of any kind, let alone a pin, boggles my mind.

33girl, I see your point, but not only did that certain member pay for his or her paraphanalia, but it would be very easy for that person or someone not in a GLO to buy something with Greek letters. You don't have to have any proof that you're a member in order to buy block letters, etc.

CutiePie2000 · #6 04-06-2002, 10:03 PM

I feel compelled to chime in here. I think in 99.99% of the cases, the pins that we're seeing up on E-Bay are from deceased members, and what is happening is that the surviving family members are not aware that the proper disposal of the badge is to return the pin to the GLO's headquarters.

I also have to say, that for the family members who are left behind, they are likely quite bereaved and want to settle matters as soon as possible, so repatriating a pin back to a GLO's headquarters might seem like more hassle than its worth. If they find a "pretty" pin, they might just go, "hmmm...maybe some antique dealer might take an interest in this?" Also a lot of people are clueless about the Greek alphabet and maybe don't even know that Grandma or Grandpa were in a GLO and if they did, they might not know what GLO it is...Grandma or Grandpa might not have mentioned it (particularly if they were not active alumni in the post-college years).

I don't know if this is "off color", but in virtually every magazine issue that I get of The Anchora, there is an "In Memorium" section of members who have passed away...maybe there could be a tactful blurb in there reminding people about the proper disposal of a badge. It might be the only way to get the awareness level up, know what I mean? A lot of alumni out there don't even realize that they are supposed to be ANNUAL DUES....so I can see that a lot of people are not aware of the proper disposal of a badge upon death.

To answer your question, while I don't like to say this, the reality is for a sorority or fraternity to try to take legal action to get a pin back, would be fruitless and a waste of money and time. The simple. unjewelled badges are often worth less than $100.00. So, even if the GLO were to win, the property in question is of such a small monetary value that it might only be settled in "small claims" court and I don't know how easy it would be to enforce the judgment (i.e. get the pin back). [In Canada, Small Claims Court is for property worth <$500.00)].

I guess my thoughts are, no, I don't like it to see GLO pins for sale"....however, if someone is buying it because they think they're beautiful and to be admired...well, then I can take some consolation in that.

However...if someone is buying them with the intention of WEARING THEM and misrepresenting themselves (i.e. "perping themselves") as an initiated member of that organization, then THAT I have a problem with.

I think for the most part though, pin collectors buy them for the looking and admiring, not for the wearing.

KillarneyRose · #7 04-06-2002, 10:11 PM

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful replies! I and all of my sisters have always been taught that our badge is the property of Nationals and is to be returned to them upon our death or deactivation. However, I don't recall if I ever signed anything attesting to that or not.

What if GLOs started requiring members to sign such an agreement? Do you all think that eventually Ebay would stop accepting GLO badges for sale once they are confronted with a legal document pertaining to the badge?

This is really a mind exercise for me more than anything! It just seems to me that if GLO governing bodies really want to make sure their badge never ends up on Ebay, there must be a way to make it impossible for them to be sold. But then, of course, the time and money that would need to be invested to enforce it may just not be worth it.

CutiePie2000 · #8 04-06-2002, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
What if GLOs started requiring members to sign such an agreement? Do you all think that eventually Ebay would stop accepting GLO badges for sale once they are confronted with a legal document pertaining to the badge?

Tracy/KillarneyRose,
I think it is just a matter of the sororities catching up to technology....And I would not be surprised if the GLOs do place such a mechanism in place for the near future.
If Ebay was faced with such a document in the future, then hopefully it would help end the practice of badges being sold.

CP2K

Optimist Prime · #9 04-07-2002, 12:21 AM

I think my badge is mine....I'll need to check. Although, I don't see how it matters, if some one who isn't my brother has a badge, he can't know what it means.

squirrely girl · #10 04-07-2002, 02:58 AM

yah know. with a few exceptions here and there, i've noticed that a lot of the pins being sold on ebay are advertised as "vintage" as in older pins. it kinda dawned on my that when the ladies and gentlemen actual initiated. computers and the internet didn't exist. who could have forseen this happening. and like somebody else said, if a grandma or grandpa weren't active alumnae then how would their children and grandchildren know what to do. ah well though. i think that's why soooooooooo many fraternities and sororities are making a push for the returning of pins after death.

marissa

hawaiiagd · #11 04-07-2002, 03:47 AM

You're right. Most of the badges sold on ebay belong to members who have passed. The families of the deceased more than likely know nothing about the organization or what the badge means to its members... and let the badge go in an estate sale.

Alpha Gamma Delta put out a really nice article in the Quarterly a while back reminding members of the Fraternity's policy on badges and encouraging everyone to make the policy known to their loved ones. The article even included a form you could include with your will that would let your family know what your wishes are with regard to your badge... address for IHQ and all.

Aloha,
Mai Ly

ZTAngel · #12 04-07-2002, 10:02 AM

I'm curious...
What does IHQ do with the badges? Do they set them aside in a special memorabilia section?

Tom Earp · #13 04-07-2002, 10:16 AM

ZTAngle, good question! My Badge is my Badge, Not Internationals. But mine is in my will to go to my Chapter only!

squirrely girl · #14 04-07-2002, 11:21 AM

most of the badges go into a badge vault. some of the really really old or interesting ones would obviously be put on display.

marissa

33girl · #15 04-07-2002, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeslieAGD
33girl, I see your point, but not only did that certain member pay for his or her paraphanalia, but it would be very easy for that person or someone not in a GLO to buy something with Greek letters. You don't have to have any proof that you're a member in order to buy block letters, etc.

I guess I should specify that I went to a small enough school where not only did everyone know every one of their sisters, they knew who was in all the other orgs too, and anyone perping would have gotten their asses kicked.