Should 10 & 11 year olds be charged?

[epchick]

So in another string of kids attacking other kids on April 3rd a 10 year old and an 11 year old girl attacked another 10 year old girl on the playground.

The girls, ages 10 and 11, face aggravated assault and other charges for the attack on another 10-year-old girl at an elementary school playground the evening of April 3. The girls are accused of stomping on the victim and breaking her hip, police said.

The injured girl said the other girls pulled her off the monkey bars and attacked after she told the girls to stop splashing water on her 8-year-old sister in the school playground. Police said the victim was repeatedly stomped on the head and legs.

The victim remains hospitalized and is expected to undergo at least one week of rehabilitation at a hospital. She has three pins in her hip to keep the bones in place and may eventually need a hip replacement, her mother said

So my question to you all is, should these two girls be charged? I was watching Headline News and one attorney said no, that the two girls should get detention where they have to write "I will not do this ever again" at least 100 times. Why? Because juvenile detention would be to traumatic for them.

I think they need to be in juvenile detention or something very similar. I could care less if they are 10 & 11, they knew what they were doing.


This is the most recent article on it:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080410/...RF7Glvgf1G2ocA

[KSUViolet06]

Yes they should be charged and I think spending some time in a juvenile detention facility would be very appropriate. I don't think it has to be for a long time, maybe just a few days/weeks. It needs to be enough for them to understand that what they did was wrong and that this is the place people have to go when they beat people up so they shouldn't EVER do it again.

[shinerbock]

They should do time in juvie, I agree. Perhaps make it so that on the off chance they become worthwhile members of society this incident doesn't completely hamper their ability to succeed.

However, they first need to have their asses kicked by members of their own families before letting the state have their shot. My sister is a mental health professional and constantly sees young people like this, usually with mothers who are asking "I don't know what else to do." Well, the answer is easy. If your daughter threatens to kill you and breaks stuff all over your house, find out what the law will allow and max it out.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

However, they first need to have their asses kicked by members of their own families before letting the state have their shot.

This is why I agree with spankings. When I was a 6th grader, I got in a fight w/ another girl and got suspended. My mom definitely taught me a lesson about fighting when I got home!

What gets me is the one of the girls mom claimed she was an "A, B" student. So?

[AKA_Monet]

I guess I am the only one who does not feel like putting these kids into an institution. If they were older, perhaps. But any child under the age of 12 who physically assaults other children--outside of the "meet me at 3 o'clock behind the tether balls"... Juvie, is not going to help with recidivism, in my opinion.

An ass whoopin' by a parent will... If the intent was to steal money or beat the crap out of little Joey, because he's weak, and little Joey, stood up for himself, and kicked other dude's butt, then good for him. But, it still will be punitive damages at home.

I hate physically fighting. It does nothing for you and there will always be bullies. That is how people are in this world.

But having a penal system mentality will not stop certain negative behaviors.

Now if there were guns or knives involved, yeah, someone needs to beat their natural behinds within an inch of their lives.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I guess I am the only one who does not feel like putting these kids into an institution. If they were older, perhaps. But any child under the age of 12 who physically assaults other children--outside of the "meet me at 3 o'clock behind the tether balls"... Juvie, is not going to help with recidivism, in my opinion.

Yeah I think it depends on the kid. If it were me, a pretty good kid mixed up in the wrong crowd who did something incredibly stupid, then time in a detention center probably would have scared me and been helpful. However, if these are kids prone to such behavior who are from detached or downright terrible parents, it may just reinforce that they're going to live a life like this.

Kids who do things that are so depraved have to know punishment, but if they're from a place where this is part of growing up, it won't help.

[Munchkin03]

What a bunch of little animals!

I don't know how I feel about juvie, either. If they're there for any considerable period of time, they could come out being WORSE, since they're around a bunch of other bad-ass little kids who know the system in and out, and could teach them all sorts of crazy things.

How can you reform a kid like that, anyway?

[EE-BO]

AKA Monet, I am tempted to go with you on this- but let me please pose a question first.

Do you think these two kids really understood that they were inflicting serious medical damage to the victim?

That is where I have a hangup with this. I remember the odd grade school fight, and I really don't think we had any concept that we could really hurt somebody so badly.

Shove a kid on the ground, and he gets sand in his hair. Shove a kid while you are on the jungle gym and he falls and breaks an arm (the latter did happen at my school once and noone was arrested or charged with a crime. We were in 2nd grade as I recall.)

Can a 10 year really understand yet how sheer fate and a complex set of variables could make a beating turn out to be no big deal or a medical nightmare?

I suspect the answer is no, which is why I do not like the idea of juvenile hall (along with what 2 others have pointed out about how that is not a good place for any kid to spend time since it is just a training ground for far worse.)

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

AKA Monet, I am tempted to go with you on this- but let me please pose a question first.

Do you think these two kids really understood that they were inflicting serious medical damage to the victim?

That is where I have a hangup with this. I remember the odd grade school fight, and I really don't think we had any concept that we could really hurt somebody so badly.

Shove a kid on the ground, and he gets sand in his hair. Shove a kid while you are on the jungle gym and he falls and breaks an arm (the latter did happen at my school once and noone was arrested or charged with a crime. We were in 2nd grade as I recall.)

Can a 10 year really understand yet how sheer fate and a complex set of variables could make a beating turn out to be no big deal or a medical nightmare?

I suspect the answer is no, which is why I do not like the idea of juvenile hall (along with what 2 others have pointed out about how that is not a good place for any kid to spend time since it is just a training ground for far worse.)

I am trying very hard to be short and sweet. But it is hard... Let me put it like this so that folks can understand:

If these little girls were my kids and I found out that they did this... Hayle, they'd wish they could be sent to Juvenile Hall when I got through with them...

I would take them to see the sick who cannot control their bowel movements... And they would have to clean out bed pans...

'Cuz if they were my kids, I brought into this world, I can dayum sho take them out and make new ones just like them...

[EE-BO]

Short and sweet- and the right answer I think.

I think one thing that gets lost here is the guilt that the attacking kids will feel when they do far more damage than they thought.

That is better handled at home than dumping them in a strange environment and making them feel abandoned. Tough love is still love- and parents do that better than the penal system.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Short and sweet- and the right answer I think.

I think one thing that gets lost here is the guilt that the attacking kids will feel when they do far more damage than they thought.

That is better handled at home than dumping them in a strange environment and making them feel abandoned. Tough love is still love- and parents do that better than the penal system.

But it sounds like these kids do not have that parental direction... That guilt was not a factor in their minds when they acted out in rage and someone was hurt.

See, anger is a strong emotion. It makes one feel invincible, indestructible. One can have strength and energy from it--negative energy--but for the energy-less, it will do... The trick about anger though and acting on it, its energy can be dissipated RAPIDLY--it is a quick fix, a band-aid--a fast road to to perdition that never leads to peace and never to love. SLOW to anger... It is the person who can control that impulse that makes the difference...

The thing is it takes wisdom, sage, age, experiences, thoughtfulness, faith, hope and love...

I think folks, children, resort to anger and hate because they are easy emotions it is a primeval survival tactic. All of us have to be better than that...

As far as these kids, I had more fear of Mom than God... God was my savior. Mom, the disciplinarian. Dad on the other hand... All conversations were over when Dad got involved...

[EE-BO]

Same here with my Dad.

And while I agree with what you are saying, the big question becomes what happens when there is no Mom or Dad around to administer the tough love?

I really do think that a kid who feels alone in the world and turns to violence will be very unlikely to change from that course if they are just dumped in jail. That merely justifies their resorting to being "tough" as the only way to survive and have a sense of security.

The discussion I think needs to happen is this- "Who becomes the parent figure in the lives of kids who get in trouble and do not have birth parents willing to fill that role?"

And in that comes a multitude of secondary questions. What are the standards, if any? How can we be sure case by case evaluations are fair and accurate? Let's face it, a poor African-American child is far more likely to be considered "lost" than some wealthy white kid who commits an act of similar gravity.

Child neglect and mistreatment is such a hot button issue with me that I am not always able to discuss it rationally. I don't know why that is since I had a pretty good upbringing, but it gets to me.

I just turned off the TV and I was watching a forum discussion on race on MSNBC. During that forum, one of the participants told the story of a young African-American male who was in court for something he had done and the judge was telling him that he was lucky to be just 2 months shy of 16 since it meant he would go to juvie instead of being at risk for going to prison.

The young man replied that he didn't care where he went as long as it was not home.

That is terrifying.

And it is all the more worrisome given how American society is evolving. For the forseeable future, the US is becoming a country of enormous wealth and leadership driven by labor provided outside of the US.

This just widens the gap between the rich and the poor, and shrinks the middle class.

And in turn, that makes youth who make one mistake or are not raised by good parents all the more likely to fall into a position where they can never get ahead no matter how smart, ambitious or genuinely "good" they are.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

And while I agree with what you are saying, the big question becomes what happens when there is no Mom or Dad around to administer the tough love?

I really do think that a kid who feels alone in the world and turns to violence will be very unlikely to change from that course if they are just dumped in jail. That merely justifies their resorting to being "tough" as the only way to survive and have a sense of security.

Well, what you have just described has been going on for over 20 years in destitute neighborhoods... No responsible adult to administer love: be it tough or otherwise.

Originally Posted by EE-BO

The discussion I think needs to happen is this- "Who becomes the parent figure in the lives of kids who get in trouble and do not have birth parents willing to fill that role?"

Video games. The internet. Myspace. Perverts. Hustlers. Pimps. Hos. Jerry Springer. Dope Dealers. Crack Addicts. Gamblers. Pedophiles. Those are the folks eager to take these children and destroy them...

Originally Posted by EE-BO

And in that comes a multitude of secondary questions. What are the standards, if any? How can we be sure case by case evaluations are fair and accurate? Let's face it, a poor African-American child is far more likely to be considered "lost" than some wealthy white kid who commits an act of similar gravity.

Standards as parents? There are parenting classes. But you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink... If DSHS takes your kids away, you have to take some level of parenting classes. It would be nice to not have stressors in your life when one's poor. But, these booterrific problems have a way compounding...

As far as saying race: I don't really agree with all that. There are a bunch of problems with everybody's kids these days. Maybe the rich parents can get their kids out of trouble better than a poor parent(s). But the dividing line is less and less about race than it is about economics... Unfortunately, I am not deluded to think that 70%+ of the poor people are of various ethnic groups that have a darker complexion. But, where I am, I see similar kid problems everybody's community.

Originally Posted by EE-BO

I just turned off the TV and I was watching a forum discussion on race on MSNBC. During that forum, one of the participants told the story of a young African-American male who was in court for something he had done and the judge was telling him that he was lucky to be just 2 months shy of 16 since it meant he would go to juvie instead of being at risk for going to prison.

The young man replied that he didn't care where he went as long as it was not home.

That is terrifying.

And it is all the more worrisome given how American society is evolving. For the forseeable future, the US is becoming a country of enormous wealth and leadership driven by labor provided outside of the US.

This just widens the gap between the rich and the poor, and shrinks the middle class.

And in turn, that makes youth who make one mistake or are not raised by good parents all the more likely to fall into a position where they can never get ahead no matter how smart, ambitious or genuinely "good" they are.

Well. This was how it was in 1992 before the LA Riots... I have heard this talk. There might be baptism by fire at higher stakes... I don't know. Kids have given up because how do you teach a child hope who have never seen any hope?

I think that NO ONE can compete with United States ingenuity. Folks cannot bootleg that, it cannot be outsourced, and it is all of us who engender the true nature of our American heritage and its founding--the only word I can come up with is ingenuity. That is not seen in other countries and even if they tried, it still would not taste right--like an Apple Pie, BBQ or hayle veggie burger ( )...

Somehow, our connection to our children will be improved for all children. It might take a rooting out of the old and the coming in with the new. Or it may mean that we try something we don't like--i.e. military support--what are our wounded, but healed soldiers doing with their lives now? I am sure if asked they might step up and make many of kids proud... At least that has been my experience and opinion.

[EE-BO]

Hi AKA Monet,

When I mentioned standards- I was talking about the standards by which the government would decide when a child should be removed. I do think economics could end up playing an unfair role in that- hence my concern.

And fair point of you to note that this is an economic issue in general more than racial. I agree. The hypothetical I posed was driven in large part by the fact African-American status, on average, in the US is highly tied to economics, and not in a good way.

But most importantly, I love the hint of optimism in your posts on topics like this. It is very contagious- and thankfully so.

[GeekyPenguin]

I think they should get stayed adjudication - make them spend a week in juvie (this seems like YEARS to kids that age) and do 100 hours of community service. If they go the next year passing all their classes with Cs or better, do the service, and otherwise stay out of trouble, nothing goes on their record. They eff up again, and they're going to have the adjudication on their record and do some more time in juvie.