New Trend

[hank1]

I really appreciate participating in your forum and will start my posting with new information , I also would like to have your comments on the declared phenomenon:

After the tragic attack on 9/11 and the war on terrorism, Islam remain the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society.

http://www.therevival.co.uk/revivali...onversions.htm
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." Hillary Rodman Clinton, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3

Famous people too:

Singer "Cat Stevens" Oh, baby, baby it's a wild world
Hear his story as told him

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.n...2569BA0007D998

[James]

I thought it was because of fear?

Its one of the few religions left where not being a member can result in you be killed . . it would make sense to convert because it might increase your chances of not being slain by a fanatic wouldn't it?

After all, none of the other major world religions will kill you for following Islam. Whereas members of Islam might very well kill yuo for not being something else.

Which is odd because originally Islam had a reputation for tolerance.

Originally posted by hank1

After the tragic attack on 9/11 and the war on terrorism, Islam remain the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society.


http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.n...2569BA0007D998

[moe.ron]

What exactly is the question?

[hank1]

the question is why Islam is increasing and USA is blaming it.

I think from what I've heard from different friends of mine who have converted to Islam, there are a few main reasons for most conversions:


1. Muslims and Christians agree that God is self-existent._ This means that He does not derive his existence from anyone._also they both believe in Jesus, love him, and honor him. In fact, no Muslim can be a Muslim unless he or she believes in Jesus, on whom be peace.

The Quran teach that Jesus is prophet or messenger from Allah and not a God so Quran denies the divinity of Jesus.The Qur'an says that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he spoke while he was still only a baby, that he healed the blind and the leper by God's leave, and that he raised the dead by God's leave.


2. Islam is a religious lifestyle, not just a quick Sunday morning church visit and a label. Although some Christians do pray before each meal and spend much time with their Bible, etc.many don't in the USA. Islam is something that can't be shunted into a few spare hours. You pray five times a day. Your dress code is affected; even your food choices are explained in the Qur'an. Many converts like it because they feel actively involved and as if they are truly religious.


3. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture. Women are not required by the Qur'an to veil. They are required to dress modestly and it is *recommended* that they cover their hair. However, most do veil and some go farther with niquab (the face screen) or other traditional clothes. Women dressed like this consider themselves marked as religious women, not easy dates. They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearance. You buy a five-dollar hijab, put your hair in a ponytail and cover, wear long skirt and a tunic shirt -you're set.


4. Islam is also growing because many people are not satisfied with Christianity. They feel it is too liberal, too fluid and changes for the culture. Islam on the other hand is more rigid and does not as a whole allow much for modern changes and the whims of society. Many like it because they feel other religions have loose standards.

That's what I got from the new Muslimah's group at Yahoo, Islamway women's board and a few other friends of mine. Stats taken by many college groups say that women convert 4 times more often then men.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by hank1
the question is why Islam is increasing and USA is blaming it.

Quick question, what exactly is USA blaming Islam about? I'm still a little confused about your questions.

As for why people do it, it's a very personal choice. You also have to remember that there are more then 30 different version of Islam, from your Sufi to your Wahabi. The thing about Islam is it's a very decentralize religion. There is no authority in Islam and fatwas come and go every single day. Depending on who you follow, people can pick and choose which fatwas to follow and which one to ignore.

Then you have different regional interpretation of the religion. What is consider a big thing in Indonesia can be consider sacriligious in Saudi Arabia. (For instance, many Indonesian Muslims believe in spirits of ancestor to help them go through rough patches. That will never be acceptable by the Wahabi)

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by hank1
3. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture. Women are not required by the Qur'an to veil. They are required to dress modestly and it is *recommended* that they cover their hair. However, most do veil and some go farther with niquab (the face screen) or other traditional clothes. Women dressed like this consider themselves marked as religious women, not easy dates. They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearance. You buy a five-dollar hijab, put your hair in a ponytail and cover, wear long skirt and a tunic shirt -you're set.

Okay, I think this can potentially be an interesting discussion, but I'm in a hurry right now so I'm only going ot comment on the part I've quoted here.

The fact that any woman would feel that she needs religion to make her feel she doesn't "have to conform to western standards of sexy dress" etc. is incredibly sad. If you don't want to dress like a ho, don't. It's THAT EASY. You don't need religion to tell you that.

[lifesaver]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Okay, I think this can potentially be an interesting discussion, but I'm in a hurry right now so I'm only going ot comment on the part I've quoted here.

The fact that any woman would feel that she needs religion to make her feel she doesn't "have to conform to western standards of sexy dress" etc. is incredibly sad. If you don't want to dress like a ho, don't. It's THAT EASY. You don't need religion to tell you that.

I agree with Val here. But this is the essence of the fundamental difference between Arab Islam and (non-Islamic) Americans. We just don’t get each other.

Being a non-Islamic American, I can only speak from one perspective, but I find #3 above incredibly sexist. The way the statement is written, (and what some Islamic Arabs believe) is this whole nonsensical thing that women are a slave to their sexuality; that it is some uncontrollable force that they just cant fight off (ignoring the fact that most all of the fighting, killing, raping and pillaging done throughout humanity has been done by men) and they need men (or the Qur'an) to save them from themselves. Damn near every woman I know loves their sexuality and its an essential part of who they are.

Why do people believe always believe that fashion and popular culture is driven from the top down 'liberal media'? When in fact, the media leaders and fashion pioneers always look to the people on the street (specifically the 18-24 demographic) for whats hot and new. The 'western' culture isn’t driven from the top down. Its driven from the bottom up. (Just spend 12 minutes with a group of 'cool' college kids. Listen to their vernacular.) Three years later you'll see that same vernacular repeated on the most popular TV shows.

Again, Arab Muslims just don’t get it. American women don’t feel threatened by our culture and the 'in your face' sexuality. I always love how people who aren’t familiar with our culture (whomever the author was) seem to be experts on it. If its so 'refreshing' for Arab Muslims to wear the hajab and stuff, why on international flights do the wealthy women peel off the beekeeper outfit to show off the channel suits and dresses as soon as they land in Paris or London or NY?

Again, this is the same nonsensical argument from the Islamic right that I am tired of. "The corrupt western culture" blah blah blah. Ever been to Cairo? Every apt. balcony has a satellite dish (same with many other middle eastern cities) pointed to the west cause the youth are watching Pimp My Ride, Charmed and The OC. Hypocritical much? I think so. Don’t worry tho. Hypocrisy isn’t inherent to Islam. In the states we have a term called 'back row Baptists' or sometimes called 'Sunday morning Baptists." It describes those who rally against the 'drink' and alcohol use, and are at the bar on Saturday night, but always at church on Sunday morning.

The root of the 'hatred' of 'corrupt American culture' is nothing more than thinly veiled jealousy. For thousands of years the Arab countries were the world leaders in art, science, mathematics, language, trade and culture. That’s hardly the case anymore. Jealousy+Poverty=Hatred bred in the madrassas. If it wasnt for the oil, the mid-east would be the biggest, best deserted beach on the planet.

BTW, I went to an Eid celebration last December. It was pretty cool.

*Edited to fix spelling, and that I hadn't used an uppercase "I" in Islam. Dont wanna piss no one off.

[hank1]

Woman, we can say that most Islamic societies aren't theocratic. I find it interesting that the three largest Islamic countries have had women heads of state (Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh), while the same can't be said of the three largest Christian countries.

I think you should visit this site to see how much Islam respect woman compared to Christianity:

Women in Christianity and Islam
http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/wchristian.html

The so-called freedom of western women and child
http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/act...p=2&item=11769

moe.ron,
I think your information about Islam is not accurate. The majority of Moslems are Sunni you can say 80%.Also the actions of an individual or a small group do not necessarily represent the beliefs of a particular religion, nor is that religion responsible for such actions. Therefore, the media’s labeling of those who are allegedly responsible for these actions as “Islamic Terrorists” and the linking of such actions to Islam or the Qur’an, is incorrect. Rather, such inhumane actions clearly contradict the teachings of Islam - just as the bombing at Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh and the killings that occurred at Ibrahim Mosque, Hebron by Dr. Baruch Goldstein clearly contradict the teachings of Christianity and Judaism, respectively.

Islamic guide is for non-Muslims who would like to understand Islam
www.islam-guide.com

================================================== ========



This is an example from one of the woman:

Why Are Women Turning to Islam:

At a time when Islam is faced with hostile media coverage particularly where the status of women in Islam is concerned, it may be quite surprising to learn that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and even more ironic to discover that the majority of converts to Islam are WOMEN.

The status of women is society is neither a new issue nor is it a fully settled one, and where Islam is mentioned, for many the term 'Muslim Women' prompts images of exhausted mothers chained to the stove, 'victims' suppressed in a life of indoctrination, frantic to be westernized and so on. Others will go to great lengths to explain how the hijaab is an obstacle, clouding the mind, and comment that female converts are either brainwashed, stupid or traitors to their sex.

I reject such accusations and pose to them the following question: why is it that so many women who have been born and brought in the so called 'civilized' societies of Europe and America are willing to reject their 'liberty' and 'independence' to embrace a religion that supposedly oppresses them and is widely assumed to be prejudicial to them?

As a Christian convert to Islam, I can only present my personal experience and reasons for rejecting the 'freedom' that women claim to have in this society in favor of the only Religion that truly liberates women by giving us a status and position, which is completely unique when compared with that of non-Muslim counterparts. Before coming to Islam, I had strong feminist tendencies and recognized that where the women was concerned, a lot of shuffling around had been going on, yet without being able to pin her on the social map.

The problem was ongoing: new 'women's issues' being raised without the previous ones being satisfactorily resolved. Like the many women who shared my background, I would accuse Islam of being a sexist religion, discriminating, oppressing and giving men the greater privileges. All this coming from a person who did not even know Islam, one who had been blinded due to ignorance and had accepted this deliberately distorted definition of Islam.

However, despite my criticisms of Islam, inwardly I wasn't satisfied with my own status as a woman in this society. It seemed to me that society would define such terms as 'liberty' and 'freedom' and then these definitions were accepted by women without us even attempting to question or challenge them. There was clearly a great contradiction between what women were told in theory and what actually happens in practice. The more I pondered, the greater emptiness I felt within. I was slowly beginning to reach a stage where my dissatisfaction with my status as a women in this society, was really a reflection of my greater dissatisfaction with society itself.

Everything seemed to be degenerating backwards, despite the claims that the 2000 was going to be the decade of success and prosperity. Something vital seemed to be missing from my life and nothing would fill this vacuum. Being a Christian did not do anything for me, and I began to question the validity of only remembering God one day a week - Sundays! As with many other Christians too, I had become disillusioned with the hypocrisy of the Church and was becoming increasingly unhappy with the concept of Trinity and the deification of Jesus.

Eventually, I began to look into Islam. At first, I was only interested in looking at those issues, which specifically dealt with women. I was surprised. What I read and learned taught me a lot about myself as a woman, and also about where the real oppression of women lies: in every other system and way of life outside of Islam. Muslim women have been given their rights in every aspect of the religion with clear definitions of their role in society - as had men - with no injustice against either of them. As Allah says: Whoever does deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to them [Nisaa 4:124]

So having amended my misconceptions about the true status of women in Islam, I was now looking further. I wanted to find that thing which was going to fill the vacuum in my life. My attention was drawn towards the beliefs and practices of Islam. It was only through establishing the fundamentals that I would understand where to turn and what to prioritize. These are often the areas, which receive little attention or controversy in society, and when studying the Islamic Creed, it becomes clear why this is the case: such concise, faultless and wholly comprehensive details cannot be found elsewhere.

According to the Qur'an, men and women are equal before God; women are not blamed for violating the "forbidden tree," nor is their suffering in pregnancy and childbirth a punishment for that act.

Islam sees a woman, whether single or married, as an individual in her own right, with the right to own and dispose of her property and earnings. A marital gift is given by the groom to the bride for her own personal use, and she may keep her own family name rather than adopting her husband's. Roles of men and women are complementary and collaborative. Rights and responsibilities of both sexes are equitable and balanced in their totality.

Both men and women are expected to dress in a way that is simple, modest and dignified; specific traditions of female dress found in some Muslim countries are often the expression of local customs rather than religious principle. Likewise, treatment of women in some areas of the Muslim world sometimes reflects cultural practices which may be inconsistent, if not contrary, to authentic Islamic teachings.
The messenger of God said:
"The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."

[SoCalGirl]

Whom are you addressing in the following statement?

Originally posted by hank1
Woman, we can say that most Islamic societies aren't theocratic. I find it interesting that the three largest Islamic countries have had women heads of state (Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh), while the same can't be said of the three largest Christian countries.

Why is that your grasp of the English language seems excellent until the issue of woman (singular) vs. women (plural) arises? Could it be because your only 16?

[lifesaver]

I do appreciate God-Spam.

But for fun, I shall debate the 16 year old.

John Walker Lindh, you are in way over your head here. Older and wiser kids have debated with us on here and have left in tears. If you’re up for it, we are. But don’t come on hoping to win converts. GC isn’t a place that really tolerates evangelism.

GC Lessons for the Newbie:

#1 - The flagrant use of 'so-called' in any argument automatically lessons the intent and effect of such argument.

#2 - All of us are capable of finding random sources that no one has ever heard of to back up our points. I could probably cite a source that says there's 14 months in the year. For all we know that completely un-attributed and un-cited story written by your convert could have been written by you. Except for the bad grammar, so it could have been written by anyone but you.

#3 - Generally speaking, I don’t click on any link that has a country code other than .us, .ca, or .uk. I don’t know what the .za extension is, but I do know I don’t want the US Treasury department or Customs and Immigration at my door tomorrow morning for violating the Patriot Act.

#4 - Make sure your links actually work. The one from Amnesty International didn’t.

#5 - Tim McVeigh never claimed that he bombed the federal building in OKC to further a religious agenda. The 9/11 attackers did. His goal was an act against the government. Specifically to start a race war. He was a bigot, not a zealot.

#6 - Your first argument was incredibly weak. But due to your age, Its understandable to fall into the correlation implies causation argument. I'd encourage you to Google cum hoc ergo propter hoc for a better understanding of an incorrect categorical syllogism.

[so damn cool]

Hank, don't listen to lifesaver...you're amazing.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by lifesaver
#3 - Generally speaking, I don’t click on any link that has a country code other than .us, .ca, or .uk. I don’t know what the .za extension is, but I do know I don’t want the US Treasury department or Customs and Immigration at my door tomorrow morning for violating the Patriot Act.

.za = South Africa

[moe.ron]

I'm still confused about what exactly would you like to debate. By the way, Indonesia is not an Islamic country. It has a secular constitution and the two largest political parties in the country are nationalist parties.

[hank1]

You cannot steer people's personal faith. Islam is now a part of western culture, whether you like it or not. It's not just for people in prison, or rock stars looking for a new thing. Some people just associate with Islam more than Christianity. That does for the other side of things too - 70% or so of Americans are Christians, and although many don't like that, it's just the way it is. It's a fact, it can't be changed, and those people are entitled to follow their faith. Acts in the name of Christianity have been responsible for some pretty fuc.ed up consequences in the last 50 years.

The Christians most likely killed WAY more protestants, Jews and 'Indian's in South America. Also, North Americans killing the natives and all that. Islam also has its extremists but it united the disparaged tribes of the Middle East and brought peace to the region, which led to it being the bastion of learning, right? Technically speaking, the Destabilization of the area started with the crusades and then continued under many an imperial regime.


I don’t know why people hate Islam; I think the hate comes from the media. Some Americans are so ignorant and gullible that they allow the media to deceive them. Its always "a suicide bomber killed this many" and "violent Palestinian boys throw rocks" but if we look at the bigger picture its a rock against a tank, apache helicopters, grenades and the list goes on. From this view it is quite simple to see the injustice.

Things like 9/11 happen daily in Palestine only like 10X more inhuman all due to American funds. So we don’t require a great stretch of the imagination to understand why Muslims might be angry with the West at the moment. They could easily find faults with "Christianity" in their turn, since so many Christians are acting in total contradiction to Christian principles. But the true problem has nothing to do with religion. Public opinion is being quite deliberately stirred up for political motives - Hitler did the same. Saying this does not imply defense of religious creed, however - neither one nor the other.

I will add to your list another Moslems with big impact on history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Crusade Expedition
Josef Stalin
Bush father
Bush son
Blair
Serbia Leader Molsefitch
All Israelis leaders and government members from the begging to date.
Etc

[moe.ron]

WTF are you trying to prove? You're rambling on and on about absolutely nothing. What is your main thesis?