Cheating Scandal in Atlanta Public Schools

[UGAalum94]

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/inve...g-1001375.html

APS is just one of the districts in the metro Atlanta area. The original study that found the cheating found occasional scattered problems around the state, but nothing like what they found in APS. The stuff hit the fan when, unlike other districts, APS seemed to do very little after having their own panel investigate and report on the problem, so the then-governor ordered a new investigation.

[DrPhil]

That sucks.

Old news: Public school systems, especially districts with certain demographics, shouldn't be left to struggle.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That sucks.

Old news: Public school systems, especially districts with certain demographics, shouldn't be left to struggle.

What do you mean about being left to struggle?

APS actually has some of the highest funding per student in the state. The kids' homes may be poor, but the district is not. Mismanaged, almost certainly, but they've got the resources coming in. If you have an elected school board who appoints the superintendent, who comes in to save the day?

At this point, I can see the state justifying more regulation of the district, but short of this kind of investigation, how do you justify taking authority away from the elected school board, even if it's the name of preventing them from struggling?

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

What do you mean about being left to struggle?

APS actually has some of the highest funding per student in the state. The kids' homes may be poor, but the district is not. Mismanaged, almost certainly, but they've got the resources coming in. If you have an elected school board who appoints the superintendent, who comes in to save the day?

At this point, I can see the state justifying more regulation of the district, but short of this kind of investigation, how do you justify taking authority away from the elected school board, even if it's the name of preventing them from struggling?

But if *real* scores were used, wouldn't they have faced losing most of their federal funding due to NCLB? Basing funding on test scores is going to lead to things like this. I'm not justifying their behavior, just noting that people will do what they need to do to get funding if desperate.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

But if *real* scores were used, wouldn't they have faced losing most of their federal funding due to NCLB? Basing funding on test scores is going to lead to things like this. I'm not justifying their behavior, just noting that people will do what they need to do to get funding if desperate.

Nope. Only non-compliance results in loss of funds*. (Like you didn't give the tests, submit reports, that kind of thing, I think.) Funding is based on testing in the sense that you have to participate to get money, but not very tightly based on the results.

I believe the worst case for failing schools is restructuring in which the majority of staff are replaced at the school, but what's apparently really happened in most of the cases that have gone that far in other states is that the majority of staff will be moved within the district, rather than completely terminated. AND other corrective action counts as restructuring, like extending the day, etc, as I understand it. The district really didn't face that kind of pressure.

And there are other districts that have similar demographics in Georgia who apparently didn't feel the need to cheat, so I don't think there's any reason to give them a "well-their-backs-were-to-the-wall" pass on a systemic level. At the individual level, it's a little more complicated for me because I think it would be very hard to resist that level of direct pressure from your principal and colleagues, and other elementary jobs were pretty hard to find during this time period, for the most part.

But even then, you don't seen cheating in 100% of APS classrooms, so some people did act ethically in spite of the pressure.

This is district created pressure that was apparently resistible for some.

ETA: http://www.georgia-criminal-lawyers....egin_frau.html

Apparently, they were seeking additional federal funds for being "Distinguished" schools. And they could have lost this additional funding if they didn't score as well. But NCLB doesn't result in loss of your basic federal funding unless you opt out.

EATA: http://old.sccpss.com/District/Acade...+and+Myths.htm

This is kind of nice overview and explains that regular federal funding isn't tied to results.

[UGAalum94]

APS is one of the higher paid Metro areas districts, I'm pretty sure. Their salary information is down right now, so I can't check.

You guys doing the North Fulton/ South Fulton comparison are looking at a whole different district, but it's an interesting comparison with APS at the South Fulton level.
The demographics are comparable, but there's no systemic South Fulton cheating scandal. South Fulton schools aren't necessarily known for their great administration and some are really hard to staff, and yet, nothing like an APS response to testing pressure.

It's one thing to talk about supporting a struggling district, but if the district has repeated demonstrated that it mismanaged money and already has a surplus of county level administrators and non-classroom positions, what are you really going to do? What form does the support take?

And something else to consider, especially as data analysis seems to show a lot of the seemingly good urban results failing apart in terms of suspicious test gains, is that it's really hard to find people who have demonstrated success in schools like APS and South Fulton. Someone who can be a great principal with the situation at Chattahoochee doesn't necessarily have the skill set necessarily to make it happen at Tri-Cities. Just because a teacher can teach the heck out of kids at Walton doesn't mean he or she can motivate the kids at Crim. Even if you raised salaries to the point that people applied, a lot of suburban folks who look good on paper because they've been at schools with a lot of academic parental involvement, are simply not going to be able to get the job done without it.

I'm certainly not saying that we quit trying, but saying districts shouldn't be left to struggle and actually figuring out what to do are wildly different things. Most of the things people think will work have been tried in various forms.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That sucks.

Old news: Public school systems, especially districts with certain demographics, shouldn't be left to struggle.

Which demographics?

And how do you stop them from struggling?

[AGDLynn]

What is a total joke is that the Superintendent and her staff basically are saying "we don't know nuthing".

Well, sweetie, you were told and/or how could you explain such huge rises in scores and dropping when the scandal hit?

As the report said, they were quick to take credit but quicker to deny that something was wrong.

[axoalum]

I can hardly believe they haven't rescinded her award as top superintendent in the US. I also see the Gates Foundation will continue to drop cash on them. I know they need the extra support, but how about a little help out here in the 'burbs? Teaching positions are being cut left and right out here.

[BraveMaroon]

So many thoughts here... I'll preface this by saying I grew up in Atlanta and went to public schools in Fulton County.

1. APS needs to start recruiting teachers from Gwinnett, Cobb and Dekalb (and beyond) to come in and teach. Not teach for the CRCT, but to come in and get the basics under control. If they have the basics, the CRCT is much easier.

2. The people in North Fulton who want to break off and become Milton County need to shut the hell up and start becoming part of the solution. Don't like what's going on in South Fulton? Work on it, don't walk away from it. And remember that when you were Milton County during the depression, Fulton incorporated you and saved your ass. Maybe it's time to pay up?

3. Fire every last person who was complicit in the cheating scandal. The message you need to send educators, parents and children is that what happened is not acceptable, and it's not going to happen again.

4. Standardized tests are for the birds. I understand why they're necessary, but really, they're one of many ways to gauge comprehension. They are, to paraphrase John McCain circa 2008, doing microscopic surgery with a chainsaw. As long as there are standardized tests, we will have cheating scandals that were enacted to circumvent the system. It's the American Way!!

Ok, that's all I have to say for now.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AGDee

But if *real* scores were used, wouldn't they have faced losing most of their federal funding due to NCLB? Basing funding on test scores is going to lead to things like this. I'm not justifying their behavior, just noting that people will do what they need to do to get funding if desperate.

Exactly. Struggle comes from all sides. A predominantly poor district will have struggles even if it has "some of the highest funding per student in the state." That funding buffers some of the effects and gets the school district more (just "more") up to par. What happens once the school is supposedly up to par is a different story.

Misappropriated funds, teachers and staff who are considered inadequate for whatever reasons, and cheating scandals---all more likely to happen at certain districts no matter what state you are in.

[axoalum]

BraveMaroon, I get what you are saying about Fulton in general but as a taxpayer for 25 yrs there (3 now in Gwinnett) and having lived in North Fulton from when it was just a bunch of cows and crappy roads, I always felt that we got the short end of the stick when it came to funds for schools, park and rec, etc. Both of my daughters graduated from Fulton public schools. IMO Gwinnett is doing a much better job of distributing the funds equally. I am not opposed to South Fulton getting an extra boost but many of us never really felt that we had a voice.

I agree about getting new teachers in there but have never understood why the APS had a reputation of some of the worst teachers. Didn't they pay as much or more? Maybe you have more insight and can shed some light on that for me.

[BraveMaroon]

Originally Posted by axoalum

BraveMaroon, I get what you are saying about Fulton in general but as a taxpayer for 25 yrs there (3 now in Gwinnett) and having lived in North Fulton from when it was just a bunch of cows and crappy roads, I always felt that we got the short end of the stick when it came to funds for schools, park and rec, etc.


I agree about getting new teachers in there but have never understood why the APS had a reputation of some of the worst teachers. Didn't they pay as much or more? Maybe you have more insight and can shed some light on that for me.

I lived in North Fulton for 30 years (born, raised and schooled), and had to laugh at the cows and crappy roads. Alpharetta used to be a joke - it was where hillbillies lived. Times have changed. I think that Fulton could always improve the distribution of funds, but I think North Fulton needs to drop the Us vs. Them mentality.

My thought with APS teachers is that they don't make quite as much as their counterparts in outlying counties, and most people who live in Atlanta don't actually live in Atlanta. Like, I'm "from Atlanta", and by that, I mean I was born at Piedmont Hospital and grew up in Roswell - I also lived in Atlanta after graduation, and because my voting district was technically unincorporated Sandy Springs (right on the edge of Buckhead), I didn't get to vote for a mayor (talk about not having a voice). This was a decade ago, so again - it's been awhile. You need to pay people a little more so that they can either live in the city comfortably, or are willing to get up every morning and drive in from Duluth or Lithonia or Marietta.

To SigmaDiva's point, I don't think living outside of Atlanta makes you a better teacher automatically, but I think if they had more to offer in general and cast a wider net in recruiting, I think they'd get some great talent. I think that's true not just for Atlanta, but in general. Make being a teacher something worth doing, and the right kinds of people will flock to the profession.

That doesn't solve the problem of a corrupt system, but it's a start.

[AGDee]

The next paragraph in that link I posted is:
If the district does not have any other school to which students can transfer, it is required to attempt to make arrangements with neighboring districts and is expected to make additional efforts to improve the services in the identified schools.

This is what is happening here. School of choice has kids flocking to neighboring districts. It tends to be the parents who are engaged and the kids who are successful who leave the school so the original district loses the kids who would succeed and their AYP drops even more. Most of the districts in my immediate area have only one high school. Even as schools are making cuts now, the superintendents and school boards are pretty much colluding so that they are cutting the same things to avoid further loss of students to the other districts. When they were talking about cutting AP classes at my kids' high school, I told them we'd just school of choice to the district closest to my house. Then that district contemplated the same exact cuts. Thankfully, neither district cut AP classes. Those cuts weren't related to students leaving due to school of choice though, just massive cuts in funding from the state.

[DrPhil]

I agree, AGDee. As a product of public schools, I remember when zones were changed so that the public schools could be ranked in terms of "haves/smart kids/other high status groups" and "have nots/smart kids/other low status groups." Before then, each school was more diverse in terms of social class, family background, race and ethnicity, and therefore (since these are highly correlated) school performance and educational attainment. I'm sure people can figure out what the outcome of that was and that persisted even after the state provided funding for the "have not" schools. What Joe Clark did is a rarity. And there are families who would transfer if they could financially and legally do so. But, we don't want everyone to transfer, that would defeat the purpose and admit that there are lesser schools. Yikes. Remember the cases of Tonya McDowell and Yolanda Miranda who both got caught lying about their addresses for school purposes?


I say, again, what is going on in APS is going on in other public schools systems (especially those that serve particular demographics) across the country. I'm not concerned with the cheating scandal (that has been caught) but with why they felt the need to do this. I doubt it was just loser teachers and staff who were too darn lazy and wanted to misappropriate funds. But, if people insist that's what the issue is, why are these schools being given teachers and staff who are lazy losers who want to misappropriate funds? That type of thing wouldn't fly in certain school districts.

The issues of school resources, standardized tests, zoning, and districting have been discussed since the 1980s. These issues are assessed based on outcome and not intent. The intent of having standardized tests is not the point. No one is saying standardized tests are THE problem; nor are people blaming those who thought/think tests are a good idea--I consider tests to be a decent idea ONLY when students (across schools and across districts) are given the proper preparation. The outcome of these tests and zoning across the country is the real point. The outcome reveals some issues that people across the country have been finding various ways to address.

/long post