Al-Qaida's No. 2 defends deadly attacks

[jon1856]

I just about:
1)fell off on my chair when I saw this
2) Thought about putting this into odd news stories
3)Then just got depressed

Al-Qaida's No. 2 defends deadly attacks
CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida No. 2 Ayman al-Zawahri, rejecting criticism of attacks by the terror network's followers that have killed thousands, maintained Wednesday that it does not kill innocent people.
His comment came during a 90-minute audio response that was billed as the first installment of answers to the more than 900 questions submitted on extremist Internet sites by al-Qaida supporters, critics and journalists in December.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080402/...a/ask_al_qaida
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23925477/
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...edName=topNews

[RACooper]

What your shocked that a fanatic only sees the reality they want to see?

People believe lots of messed up crap based on ideology, so why should one of the clowns that spreads his twisted ideology be any different than any of others?

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by RACooper

What your shocked that a fanatic only sees the reality they want to see?

People believe lots of messed up crap based on ideology, so why should one of the clowns that spreads his twisted ideology be any different than any of others?

Not at all shocked at this. Just that very few people counter it.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Not at all shocked at this. Just that very few people counter it.

I'm a little confused here - what do you mean that very few people counter it? Or do you mean that very few people counter it in the sources you look at/access? Does the entire "Muslim" world have to spontaneously all repudiate the rantings of a evil religious and ideological fanatic? Because God knows that we Christians as a whole don't seem to really do that for the evil bastards calling themselves "Christians" lurking our midst now do we?

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by RACooper

I'm a little confused here - what do you mean that very few people counter it? Or do you mean that very few people counter it in the sources you look at/access? Does the entire "Muslim" world have to spontaneously all repudiate the rantings of a evil religious and ideological fanatic? Because God knows that we Christians as a whole don't seem to really do that for the evil bastards calling themselves "Christians" lurking our midst now do we?

RA-we both have posted in very similar threads in the past. IIRC, there have been comment made in them as well as in the media, that this type of extremest rant ("Clown") generally does not get much counter-arguments on the street. I am not saying that the entire Muslim world/religion believes in any of it.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by RACooper

I'm a little confused here - what do you mean that very few people counter it? Or do you mean that very few people counter it in the sources you look at/access? Does the entire "Muslim" world have to spontaneously all repudiate the rantings of a evil religious and ideological fanatic? Because God knows that we Christians as a whole don't seem to really do that for the evil bastards calling themselves "Christians" lurking our midst now do we?

Oh, but I think Christian do. Think about how many people openly condemn the Westboro Baptist Church craziness.

And I guess I'm looking for active, open public condemnation, not merely a willingness to say when your among non-Muslim friends or other moderate Muslims that the extremists are a problem.

I think the number of Muslims who are willing to publicly condemn Muslim extremist is much smaller, mainly because Muslim extremist might kill you for doing so which again is the threat that no one wants to openly admit that they are bowing to.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Oh, but I think Christian do. Think about how many people openly condemn the Westboro Baptist Church craziness.

And I guess I'm looking for active, open public condemnation, not merely a willingness to say when your among non-Muslim friends or other moderate Muslims that the extremists are a problem.

I think the number of Muslims who are willing to publicly condemn Muslim extremist is much smaller, mainly because Muslim extremist might kill you for doing so which again is the threat that no one wants to openly admit that they are bowing to.

Thanks '94. Well said.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Oh, but I think Christian do. Think about how many people openly condemn the Westboro Baptist Church craziness.

Ah but do they really - at least in a way different to what happens in the "Muslim World"? (in quotations for a reason).

Because we are familiar with Christianity and "Western" culture we understand the nuances and differences of both the ideologies and the rejections of said ideologies - what's more is that we are also 'immersed' or connected into our society so we are more apt to hear/see even the "half-assed" rejections. We aren't connected into or apart of the "Muslim World" so we aren't as likely to either hear or see anything unless we either make an effort to look outside of our world or that the media choses to report on (admitedly with the state of American media: self-focused "mediatainment" it's a little more difficult for you).

I think the number of Muslims who are willing to publicly condemn Muslim extremist is much smaller, mainly because Muslim extremist might kill you for doing so which again is the threat that no one wants to openly admit that they are bowing to.

Same can be said for Christianity - it is much easier to condemn those outside of one's denomination or faith than it is to deal harshly with the cancer within... and even then there is a strong inclination to handle things "in house".

So for example how many "Christians" condemned or rejected the hateful and ignorant comments of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or Franklin Graham when they spouted of about Islam? We in the West are just as guilty when it comes to not rejecting, or hell even accepting, the rantings and ravings of ideological assholes - the only difference is that our assholes are on top so they haven't radicalized "too much" (although some have on the fringes - Christian Identity, Christian Patriots, FLDS, KKK, etc.)

[Kevin]

A big difference between Muslim and Western culture is that their Pat Robertsons, etc. are in important governmental and judicial positions.

Pat Robertson tried to run and was laughed off the stage.

Your comparisons don't really hold up.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Ah but do they really - at least in a way different to what happens in the "Muslim World"? (in quotations for a reason).

Because we are familiar with Christianity and "Western" culture we understand the nuances and differences of both the ideologies and the rejections of said ideologies - what's more is that we are also 'immersed' or connected into our society so we are more apt to hear/see even the "half-assed" rejections. We aren't connected into or apart of the "Muslim World" so we aren't as likely to either hear or see anything unless we either make an effort to look outside of our world or that the media choses to report on (admitedly with the state of American media: self-focused "mediatainment" it's a little more difficult for you).



Same can be said for Christianity - it is much easier to condemn those outside of one's denomination or faith than it is to deal harshly with the cancer within... and even then there is a strong inclination to handle things "in house".

So for example how many "Christians" condemned or rejected the hateful and ignorant comments of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or Franklin Graham when they spouted of about Islam? We in the West are just as guilty when it comes to not rejecting, or hell even accepting, the rantings and ravings of ideological assholes - the only difference is that our assholes are on top so they haven't radicalized "too much" (although some have on the fringes - Christian Identity, Christian Patriots, FLDS, KKK, etc.)

I understand what you are saying as far as maybe be unable to see all the renunciations by moderate Muslims because we are at the mercy of the groups who report them and because there's a degree of cultural difference and distance. But I don't know that I agree that it's the main issue.

I know a lot of people who condemn Jerry Falwell et al just on basic principle, and that might be why we don't hear specific condemnation of what they say about Islam. If they advocated Christians to use suicide missions to kill Muslims in terrorist attacks so that they could become Christian martyrs and win eternal reward, I suspect we'd hear some specific renunciations though, so I'm not sure the issue for Muslims is simply that they find the extremist already pathetic enough.

Your use of Falwell is interesting. As nuts as he is, consider his response to the Hustler parody and imagine a similarly extremist Muslim's response. Somehow I don't think an extremist Muslim cleric takes the case up in civil court, but maybe suggesting incest with his mother wouldn't fire him up as much as cartoons of Muhammad.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Kevin

A big difference between Muslim and Western culture is that their Pat Robertsons, etc. are in important governmental and judicial positions.

Thats the thing though, you are seizing on the exceptions to prove a point - much like the Al Queda propaganda does when it seizes on exceptions in "Western" culture to construct an argument.

Pat Robertson tried to run and was laughed off the stage.

Your comparisons don't really hold up.

... and yet the administration is still rife with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, and President has no problem visiting a campus that celebrated Pope John Paul II's death on - the fact of the matter is that both the Al Queda tools and the "Christian" Right demagogues both use the same methodology in painting an image of "the faith and believers" being under siege by unbelievers and the forces of secularism, the only difference is in the application of "defense" given the respective parties geo-political and socio-economic standings on the global stage.

I have no doubt that if the respective political and economic positions where reversed that the "Christian" Right would happily engage in a 'Holy War' or Crusade of their own... and to some extent elements have been both officially and unofficially.

The only difference for us in seeing things is of course perspective, we can see and understand the nuances of the different ideologies that operate under the umbrella of "Christianity" and identify motivations and pressures other than pure religion, whereas many can't seem to do that when it comes to Islam - they only picture a select extremist and stereotypical Islam as being representative of the whole, when it is actually the exception by far.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I know a lot of people who condemn Jerry Falwell et al just on basic principle, and that might be why we don't hear specific condemnation of what they say about Islam. If they advocated Christians to use suicide missions to kill Muslims in terrorist attacks so that they could become Christian martyrs and win eternal reward, I suspect we'd hear some specific renunciations though, so I'm not sure the issue for Muslims is simply that they find the extremist already pathetic enough.

What makes you think that many Muslims don't condemn Al Queda on basic principle as well, and that there really isn't a point repeatedly condemning the extremists every time one of these assholes issues a statement or commits some new atrocity? Something like "Extremist Fatigue"...

Your use of Falwell is interesting. As nuts as he is, consider his response to the Hustler parody and imagine a similarly extremist Muslim's response. Somehow I don't think an extremist Muslim cleric takes the case up in civil court, but maybe suggesting incest with his mother wouldn't fire him up as much as cartoons of Muhammad.

True - but there is also cultural as well as religious context is there not? Consider Falwell's reactions to some "art" depicting Jesus in homosexual acts... or homosexuality in general - each culture and specific "religious" ideology has their triggers and soft spots; and their own specific blind spots in which they can commit open hypocrisies "for the greater good" (SBC + BJU financial and theological support for the UVF for example).

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by RACooper

What makes you think that many Muslims don't condemn Al Queda on basic principle as well, and that there really isn't a point repeatedly condemning the extremists every time one of these assholes issues a statement or commits some new atrocity? Something like "Extremist Fatigue"...



True - but there is also cultural as well as religious context is there not? Consider Falwell's reactions to some "art" depicting Jesus in homosexual acts... or homosexuality in general - each culture and specific "religious" ideology has their triggers and soft spots; and their own specific blind spots in which they can commit open hypocrisies "for the greater good" (SBC + BJU financial and theological support for the UVF for example).

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't recall Falwell issuing any fatwas over these things.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't recall Falwell issuing any fatwas over these things.

You mean aside from homosexuals?

[jon1856]

Last update - 05:50 01/04/2008
Hamas TV puppet 'kills' Bush as revenge for U.S., Israeli actions
By The Associated Press
In a Hamas TV production for Palestinian children, a puppet stabs U.S. President George Bush to death in revenge for American and Israeli actions.

The children's puppet aired Sunday, part of series called "Exceptionals."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/970562.html