Talkin' white

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Hello ladies. I hope that everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving.

I have a new topic on my mind this afternoon.

I spent most of my childhood in the suburbs with other Black and White children. I also read a lot of books as a child. Because I read a lot and had parents that were big on education, I always had a large vocabulary and always spoke English correctly.

Later on when my mother bought a house in an inner city neighborhood, I began to hear many comments about my grammar usage. Such as "You talk like a white girl" or the more polite "You talk so proper." I also have many friends who have always lived in the inner city in all Black neighborhoods that speak very well and they have heard these comments as well.

As an adult, I don't have any kind of identity issues or anything like that. I know that I am an educated Black woman that speaks like an educated Black woman. But my question is this, why is using proper grammar considered to be "White" and using improper grammar and slang considered to be "Black"?



[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited November 24, 2000).]

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by MIDWESTDIVA:
Hello ladies. I hope that everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving.

I have a new topic on my mind this afternoon.

I spent most of my childhood in the suburbs with other Black and White children. I also read a lot of books as a child. Because I read a lot and had parents that were big on education, I always had a large vocabulary and always spoke English correctly.

Later on when my mother bought a house in an inner city neighborhood, I began to hear many comments about my grammar usage. Such as "You talk like a white girl" or the more polite "You talk so proper." I also have many friends who have always lived in the inner city in all Black neighborhoods that speak very well and they have heard these comments as well.

As an adult, I don't have any kind of identity issues or anything like that. I know that I am an educated Black woman that speaks like an educated Black woman. But my question is this, why is using proper grammar considered to be "White" and using improper grammar and slang considered to be "Black"?

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited November 24, 2000).]

There is nothing wrong with being "educated", and wanting to speak properly. But there IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH CASTING AWAY YOUR CULTURE AND ADOPTING THE INTONATION AND MANNERISMS OF THE EUROPEAN-AMERICANS WHEN YOU'RE NOT EUROPEAN-AMERICAN. Speaking "valley", for example, is a European-American mode. You can deal with the wider society without throwing away or hiding the things African-Americans value, and our modus operandi. Assimilation shouldn't be forced on just us, and we shouldn't feel we have to do it to be accepted. Don't forget; to get the current American culture required black-eyed peas in The Melting Pot too!

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Original Ape,

Thank you for bringing that up. But what if a person has grown up in "the valley"? Would you not expect them to speak a certain way, regardless of race? Part of this whole talking white thing is related to locale, don't you think? Suburban children usually do speak differently than inner city children. The same way that Southerners speak differently than people on the East Coast.

I went to high school with a girl from Oakland, CA. She definitely spoke with a west coast accent. Most people where I live would probably say she speaks very proper or "white". But I know others from that region that speak the same way, and they're all Black. So how can that be considered "talking white" when everyone in a certain region speaks a certain way?

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited November 27, 2000).]

[Miss. Mocha]

FUNNY!!

I must admit that I enjoy the use of standard of english....especially on black men. Nothing is more sexy to me, than a black man, in a nice suit, who smells good and uses standard english.

My ears literally ring at the use of subject and verb non-agreement. My 5 year old even corrects people's grammar.

I actually like to "trip" myself out by leaving a very proper, "white sounding" (possibly valley) message on my answering machine. I don't see anything wrong with it. My friends dog me about it, but I continue to do it.

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by MIDWESTDIVA:
Hello ladies. I hope that everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving.

I have a new topic on my mind this afternoon.

I spent most of my childhood in the suburbs with other Black and White children. I also read a lot of books as a child. Because I read a lot and had parents that were big on education, I always had a large vocabulary and always spoke English correctly.

Later on when my mother bought a house in an inner city neighborhood, I began to hear many comments about my grammar usage. Such as "You talk like a white girl" or the more polite "You talk so proper." I also have many friends who have always lived in the inner city in all Black neighborhoods that speak very well and they have heard these comments as well.

As an adult, I don't have any kind of identity issues or anything like that. I know that I am an educated Black woman that speaks like an educated Black woman. But my question is this, why is using proper grammar considered to be "White" and using improper grammar and slang considered to be "Black"?

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited November 24, 2000).]

First I'd like to apologize for hittin' the button a few times too many.

Secondly, there is merit in what you say about locale, and people being a product of their environment in terms of language. But should that include intonation, and behavior?

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Originally posted by The Original Ape:
First I'd like to apologize for hittin' the button a few times too many.

Secondly, there is merit in what you say about locale, and people being a product of their environment in terms of language. But should that include intonation, and behavior?

Yes, I think that includes intonation and behavior. BTW, I've missed you. Where have you been hiding?

[Shelacious]

On my soapbox: As a young child, I had a similar experience as MidwestDiva. I went to school with mostly white and Asian children, and came home to an all-African American (Black, back then) neighborhood. Eventually, I learned to be what I call "bilingual". I have excellent diction and love that folks can't tell to which ethnicity I belong, particularly over the phone. It's interesting to see people's reactions (I work in the high-tech sector) when meeting me in person. I can also throw-down some serious "Ebonics" as well, and have taught a co-worker to say the word "sto'", instead of "store, " for example.

Seriously, I don't think how you speak is an indicator of your cultural awareness. I've seen people who can flow some Ebonics be so filled with self-loathing and self-destructive behavior--and "valley girls" who can embrace the triumphs and struggles of being an American of African descent.

To answer your original question-people's natural instinct is to find ways to categorize others--it's easier. Therefore, if we can categorize folks with flawless diction as "acting white", then we can presumably make some judgements and assumptions on them based upon this fact. While it is fine to be able to speak "Ebonics", just like it's fine to be able to speak French, German or Swahili, it is just as important to use the proper grammar of whatever is language in which you profess proficiency. The challenge is that many of our young folks (and many older) don't know how to switch from Ebonics to American English as necessary. Therefore, we're sometimes overlooked for positions just like people with thick accents from their native tongues for positions that require speaking. I will never forget how to say "birfday" (there is a direct correlation between us pronouncing "th" as "f" and some African dialects, by the way) or "git" or "I'm fixina" (or "finna", depending on region). That is an important part of my culture as an American of African descent. However, I'm also aware that my family has been in the US for at least six generations (forced, segregated and second-class citizen a given)...certainly, one would assume that I would have mastered the American English language by now.

Off the soapbox.
Shela


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Finer Womanhood: the "Cat's Meow" Since 1920

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Shela,

Your observations are all on point.

Also I am at my desk at work literally LOL at you for 2 reasons.

1. You actually taught someone how to say "sto".

2. Your examples of "fixina" and "finna". I actually used to say "fixina". (I have country parents.) It brought back some funny memories for me.



[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited November 27, 2000).]

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by MIDWESTDIVA:

Yes, I think that includes intonation and behavior. BTW, I've missed you. Where have you been hiding?

Naw Love; I've just been extremely busy. I respect your opinion on this, and acknowledge the merit in it. I know there are some cases where there is no way for us to be around us because there aren't any of us around; and so people become products of their environment. But there are some people that ELECT to emulate their white counterparts because they are afraid of their own, or ashamed of the negative perceptions of us. I too, am ashamed of how we are perceived; but I plan to prove those perceptions WRONG-instead of trying to be something I'm not. Do you understand?

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Originally posted by The Original Ape:
Naw Love; I've just been extremely busy. I respect your opinion on this, and acknowledge the merit in it. I know there are some cases where there is no way for us to be around us because there aren't any of us around; and so people become products of their environment. But there are some people that ELECT to emulate their white counterparts because they are afraid of their own, or ashamed of the negative perceptions of us. I too, am ashamed of how we are perceived; but I plan to prove those perceptions WRONG-instead of trying to be something I'm not. Do you understand?

I understand. There ARE some wannabees out there.

[PositivelyAKA]

to the ladies of Sigma Gamma Rho i hope you don't mind me posting on your board just thought this topic was interesting. i think speech and diction are a part of one's educational upbringing. i think all of our kids should speak proper english, its just the way of the business world. but outside of the interview setting etc. i think people should talk in the manner that is most comfortable to them, whether its ebonics, slang, southern, northern, valley etc. and folks should not hate on them for it. i think when we associate "proper english" as a european virtue then we set back years of trying to help folks to see that race and intellectual capacity are too separate things. we are all products of our environment in some way and that's not always a bad thing.

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by PositivelyAKA:
to the ladies of Sigma Gamma Rho i hope you don't mind me posting on your board just thought this topic was interesting. i think speech and diction are a part of one's educational upbringing. i think all of our kids should speak proper english, its just the way of the business world. but outside of the interview setting etc. i think people should talk in the manner that is most comfortable to them, whether its ebonics, slang, southern, northern, valley etc. and folks should not hate on them for it. i think when we associate "proper english" as a european virtue then we set back years of trying to help folks to see that race and intellectual capacity are too separate things. we are all products of our environment in some way and that's not always a bad thing.

I'm sure you are aware of the difference between good diction and intonation. I'm also sure you are aware that American Standard English is almost 90% European. Although we live here in America, it is not our natural language; therefore speaking it OUR WAY does not reflect a lack of intelligence on our part. Ebonics is an artistic, cultural twist on an already diluted language. As with the variations of dialect, it should be respected and accepted as well. When Cubans go to Puerto Rico, they speak Spanish and are accepted. Why can't our own people accept OUR VERSION of American English. After all, aren't we really discussing the fact that many of our people really want to shed our racial identity ANY way they can?

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Originally posted by The Original Ape:
Although we live here in America, it is not our natural language; therefore speaking it OUR WAY does not reflect a lack of intelligence on our part.

I have to disagree with that statement somewhat. I don't think that the fact that our ancestors spoke different languages is a valid excuse for some of us not to know standard English in the year 2000. Our slave ancestors were not allowed to speak their native tongues. So our people have been speaking English for over 400 years. Even if some choose not to speak standard english 24/7. When was the last time you went over to an Afrian American's house and heard them speaking Swahili?

We have as much of a right to claim English as our language, as our brethren in Latin America that claim Spanish as their primary language. They are also descendants of slaves. Speaking Spanish doesn't make them any less Black.

Also, English has really been imposed on everyone. It is the international language of business. At least for now. Young people in asian, african and middle eastern countries are trying hard to master this language so they can compete in a global market.

On my final note, I went to victoria's secret the other day and asked the salesperson for a specific item. Her response "We ain't got none dem" almost made my ears bleed. I'm not saying the girl lacks intelligence just because she thinks it's okay to use double negatives. But she is definitely lacking education if she thinks it's okay to speak that way in a place of business.

BTW Original Ape,

you could delete some of those extra posts.

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"Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching." (Satchel Paige)

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited November 28, 2000).]

[Miss. Mocha]

EBONICS SHOULD BE ACCEPTED???????? Please Original Ape, say it ain't so!!!

I have no problem with colloquialisms (sp), in fact I enjoy being around friends and family and not having to worry about butchering certain words, but come on.

In my professional life, I do not want double negatives dropping from my lips while I'm asking for a well deserved raise.

It is one thing to use ebonics occasionally, while "chillin' with one's dogs, or your girls", but know standard english, and use it when the situation (job interview, speaking to a newscaster on national tv) requires that subject/verb agreement be present. It is quite another to accept ebonics as the "black language".

I'm black, and I say HEll NO, ebonics is not the black language. As long as I'm black, I won't claim that mess. Being black and ebonics are NOT mutual exclusive.

Why are people who enjoy speaking standard english, and people who literally cringe (I DO) when they hear the doo-rag wearing, one tooth having bum of a brother explain the hit-and-run on the 10:00 news, being accused of trying to deny their identity.

I don't claim to be a historical scholar, but it would seem to me that broken english was the attempt of slaves to master a new language in an unfamiliar country.

After hundreds of years in this country, we should all know the language. It is not cute to put a name on broken english and give it to black people as the thing we've been missing.

Finally, I'm part puerto rican, and I can tell you from experience, that all spanish is not the same. If a rican goes to cuba and speaks spanish, most cubans are going to know that person is not Cuban. Intonations, and words are different. Think of the olympics, Australians speak english, but sometimes I didn't know what the heck those people were saying.

This is just my opinion. Miss. Mocha

[equeen]

Greetings, ladies of Sigma Gamma Rho.

I'm much intrigued by this topic, as I speak 2 different languages, with at least a couple variations of each. I speak American English, and (Asian) Indian English. I speak Bengali (my native tongue), as well Beng-lish.

The latter is something I speak strictly at home with my family - I doubt anyone besides my family (or other Bengali-Americans) would really get it. I speak American English here in the US of course; depending on who I'm conversing with, it can be standard English or a deep southern drawl. When I'm in India, or even conversing on the phone with a relative in India, my accent and patterns of speach take on a more British -> Indian English slant.

I feel blessed that my parents insisted that I learn my native language, and that I pick up easily on the nuances of spoken language - it has certainly made it easier to communicate with a variety of people.

It is important to me to be able to communicate effectively with people, so to me, it's not wrong to attune one's speech to the situation/audience. This includes, of course, making a formal presentation at work - standard American English predominates there. For social situations, though, the prevailing social group dictates my speech.

Thanks for introducing such an interesting topic, MIDWESTDIVA!



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equeen
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