Iraq - Better or Worse?

[RACooper]

Well it's been awhile since the Iraq debate has flared-up... or at leasst flared up with any actual thought towards the subject.

So I'm asking a question on some people's minds:
"Is Iraq better off or worse after the removal of Saddam?"

I'm going to draw fire for this by saying No. Why you may ask? Well, because of the sectarian violence, the civilian deaths, rampant torture, destroyed infrastructure, religious intolerance, and general lawlessness... while, yes, Saddam tortured and killed alot of people, he couldn't hold a candle to what has happened since his removal...

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by RACooper

I'm going to draw fire for this by saying No. Why you may ask? Well, because of the sectarian violence, the civilian deaths, rampant torture, destroyed infrastructure, religious intolerance, and general lawlessness...

As you noted yourself, all of these things (minus infrastructure damage) were present before - nobody should have expected these things to end, especially with a power vacuum situation (which has become increasingly problematic, I'll agree).

I don't really think we know enough to compare before and after, and it would seem especially near-sighted to compare while in the process of 'after' (aka rebuilding - wait until the roof and siding are finished before judging the house, amirite?).

[_Opi_]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

[shinerbock]

People seem to forget the costs of change. This is a pretty common thing in modern society, very few are willing to sacrifice for the prospect of betterment. Now do we know that Iraq will eventually be a free and stable country? Of course not, but neither did the founders of this country...

[DeltAlum]

My opinion is that it is worse.

Will it eventually be better? Maybe.

[AGDee]

I think that for many Iraqis, the infrastructure damage and civil unrest are more difficult to deal with than Sadaam was. They knew the rules before, under Sadaam. Now, there are no clear rules, but you can still get killed for not following them. The lack of electricity, the increased costs of gas, the chaos and constant violence... I can't imagine living like that. This is based on blogs like Baghdad Burning http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

I've been reading this woman's blog for over a year (maybe two now) and it's so disturbing. I'm a little concerned that she hasn't blogged since August 5th. It's one of her longest (if not THE longest) stretches she has gone without a blog entry. I feel like I know her now and worry that something has happened to her.

I consider that the whole thing could be propaganda from "the other side", but, even if it is, I believe the truth is probably somewhere in between what we hear and what I read there. I hope and pray that it will eventually be better.

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

very few are willing to sacrifice for the prospect of betterment. Now do we know that Iraq will eventually be a free and stable country? Of course not, but neither did the founders of this country...

Dude, how can you sit there behind a screen and talk about sacrifice when you dont know the meaning of that word. Thousands have died so far. At what cost? Because we, on this side of the world, "thought" there were terrorist connections to Saddam. It is now apparant that is not the case. So we justify the death of these people by saying, well at least now they can have a better country. Or they had a very bad leader. And at what cost? THEIR LIVES. We talk about freedom, but that's so f*ing hypocritical. These dead people will never have a taste of freedom. Imagine how we (and I'm talking about all of us on this side of the world) would do react to people who tried to justify 911 or any other major atrocity by saying this is the cost of "freedom" or "sacrifice" for the greater good.

I just don't think we get it.

[Rudey]

I just don't think I care for how Iraq does anymore. America should pull out and let them kill each other if they want instead of donating American lives like dollar bills.

-Rudey

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by Rudey

America should pull out and let them kill each other if they want instead of donating American lives like dollar bills.

-Rudey

Because, of course, American lives are worth more than arab lives. Sad. We might as well practice genocide, because we just don't care about how whether non-Americans live or die.

[macallan25]

I could care less how many Arabs die to be honest.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I could care less how many Arabs die to be honest.

and yet that same attitude displayed towards "Westerners" makes others evil - got to love the moral and ethical double standard...

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Dude, how can you sit there behind a screen and talk about sacrifice when you dont know the meaning of that word.

I'm hoping you're directing your comment at one person, because there are many people on this board who have sacrificed; whether that means joining the armed forces, going overseas, having friends or family members go overseas, or losing a friend or family member.

I personally agree with RC that it's early in the process to be judging better or worse (not at all to minimize the fact that so many people have lost their lives in this).

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Because, of course, American lives are worth more than arab lives. Sad. We might as well practice genocide, because we just don't care about how whether non-Americans live or die.

If someone wants to shoot you, and you decide to avoid them, does that mean you value your life over theirs? They don't appreciate our sacrifice for them. The Shiites want power shared and not to blow up from the Sunnis. The Sunnis want protection from the Shiite murderers. For all that to be possible, they need America there so they haven't asked us to leave yet. And in the meantime, to show their gratitude, Americans lose lives and limbs. If only we could all be so kind to the people that try to protect us.

-Rudey

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I'm hoping you're directing your comment at one person, because there are many people on this board who have sacrificed; whether that means joining the armed forces, going overseas, having friends or family members go overseas, or losing a friend or family member.

I'm talking about the ultimate sacrifice - with your life. I personally havent sacrificed anything. The truth is, when you join the army and sign the dotted line, you assume the risk --especially if going to a conflict zone like Iraq [not to minimize the soldier loss, of course]. It's not the same as if I lived in a remote town, and bombs fell over my head for the "betterment" of my country.

Originally Posted by Rudey

They don't appreciate our sacrifice for them. The Shiites want power shared and not to blow up from the Sunnis. The Sunnis want protection from the Shiite murderers. For all that to be possible, they need America there so they haven't asked us to leave yet. And in the meantime, to show their gratitude, Americans lose lives and limbs. If only we could all be so kind to the people that try to protect us.

I don't buy that at all. Again, the Shiites and the Sunnis fighting each other is a situation we created. Gratitude for what exactly? That their country is worse off than before. That a civil war is raging and the Iraqi body count is rising. At least the American government can pull out the army when they wise up.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Again, the Shiites and the Sunnis fighting each other is a situation we created.

What reality do you live in? It may be a situation the war brought to the surface, but just to go a back a few years, I hazard a guess that Saddam's treatment of Shi'ites over the decades contributed to it as well. It a centuries-old conflict.