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  #1  
Old 11-20-2003, 11:29 AM
Love_Spell_6 Love_Spell_6 is offline
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Exclamation Gay marriage..r the 2 mutually exclusive?

I personally think the ramifications and consequences of gay marriage being allowed are detrimental to core family values. I have lots of opinions and facts that I can post, but I am interested in what other GCers think before I go into it. If there is interest, I will elaborate. Here's an article to get us started.

Apologies if this topic is posted anywhere else.

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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush indicated Wednesday he opposes extending marriage rights to homosexuals, saying he believes marriage "is between a man and a woman."

Bush said it is "important for society to welcome each individual," but administration lawyers are looking for some way to legally limit marriage to heterosexuals.

"I believe marriage is between a man and a woman, and I think we ought to codify that one way or another," Bush told reporters at a White House news conference. "And we've got lawyers looking at the best way to do that."

Bush's comments drew praise from conservative groups, but criticism from gay rights advocates.

"The president has taken a courageous stand in favor of traditional marriage at a moment in American history when the courts are conspiring with anti-family extremists to undermine our nation's most vital institution," said the Rev. Louis Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition.

But a spokeswoman for a gay rights group faulted the president.

"We are very disappointed that the president is trying to further codify discrimination into law," said Winnie Stachelberg, political director of the Human Rights Campaign, the nation's largest gay rights group.

Earlier this month, Bush said a constitutional amendment to block gay marriages might not be necessary, although the proposal has the support of Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tennessee.

The question of gay marriage has moved to the foreground of American politics after a U.S. Supreme Court decision in June that struck down state laws banning sodomy. Canada courts also have recently recognized gay marriages. In addition, the Massachusetts high court is expected to issue a ruling soon on whether the state can allow gay marriages.

The prospect has outraged religious conservatives, an important voting bloc in the Republican Party. And a recent CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll suggest the Supreme Court ruling has prompted a backlash: The number of people who have endorsed the idea that homosexual relations should be legal has dropped from 60 percent to 48 percent since the ruling, and only 40 percent of Americans say they now would support civil unions for homosexuals.

Even as he made it clear that he did not support the idea of gay marriage, Bush appeared to issue a call for tolerance.

"Yes, I am mindful that we're all sinners," the president said Wednesday when asked for his views on homosexuality. "And I caution those who may try to take the speck out of the neighbor's eye when they've got a log in their own."

"I think it's very important for our society to respect each individual, to welcome those with good hearts, to be a welcoming country," Bush added. "On the other hand, that does not mean that somebody like me needs to compromise on an issue such as marriage."

A number of states have passed laws forbidding gays from marrying or barring the recognition of a same-sex marriage performed in another state. The federal government's 1996 Defense of Marriage Act affirms that states are not required to recognize a same-sex marriage performed in another state.

The act also defines marriage as "a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife."

Last edited by Love_Spell_6; 05-17-2004 at 11:10 AM.
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2003, 03:36 PM
estrogirl estrogirl is offline
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Your reasoning sounds really similar to what white folks said for decades to justify bans on interracial marriages.
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  #3  
Old 11-20-2003, 04:04 PM
Love_Spell_6 Love_Spell_6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by estrogirl
Your reasoning sounds really similar to what white folks said for decades to justify bans on interracial marriages.
it be nice if you elaborated...i have no idea what you're talking about
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  #4  
Old 11-20-2003, 04:12 PM
ClassyLady ClassyLady is offline
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The problem here, in my opinion, is that people are confusing legal marriage with their religious and/or moral views on marriage. The two are totally different and since this country was founded on the principles of freedom of religion and separartion of church and state, religious views and opinions on marriage should not even be considering when discussing a change in law.

Any couple, opposite or same sex, should receive the same rights and benefits of the law. A gay couple should be able to enjoy the same rights as a straight couple when it comes to healthcare, inheritances, or anything else along those lines. Legally, the two groups should be treated the same.

I will refrain from discussing my personal religious and moral beliefs because they truly are not applicable. This issue needs to be more focused on the legal, not religious, marriage of two people.
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  #5  
Old 11-20-2003, 05:56 PM
estrogirl estrogirl is offline
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I'll try to be a little clearer. You said you "personally think the ramifications and consequences of gay marriage being allowed are detrimental to core family values." People tried to justify bans on interracial marriages by alluding to the same idea of some kind of irreperable damage being done to families, to the children, to society. See what I'm saying?

Personally, I see no reason to come out against gay marriage. I've known plenty of gay couples who had more stable, loving and committed relationships than most of the married hetero couples in my family or immediate circle.
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  #6  
Old 11-20-2003, 06:57 PM
darling1 darling1 is offline
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hmmm....

I think that see we live in a democracy and have laws that supposedly secure ones right to be who they want to be, there really should not be an issue with homosexuals seeking the same rights as heterosexuals.

I agree that similar comments against homosexual marriage were the same for interracial marriage. It was as if interracial marriage was going to be the death of society.

I also agree that there are plenty of homes in which homosexuals raise loving responsible citizens.

I think no one has the right to judge anyone and that as long as there is a democracy, people should live and be how they see fit. Since there is a large population of homosexuals, we as a society need to wake up and start making appropriate and necessary changes.


I watched the Adoption Story on TLC and there was a seemingly loving couple who adopted two boys into their home. Where this issue is concerned, there are too many children residing in the foster care system and I think part of the reason is that there is too much emphasis on ones perception of morals and values all at the detriment of these children. If there are 2 people who are loving, stable and caring who wish to open their arms and their home to a child(ren) who came from complete dysfunction, I see no reason why they should be denied.

I know that was off the topic, however, I thought it was a good example of how our desire for moral decency is slowly killing a generation of potential leaders and responsible citizens.
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  #7  
Old 11-21-2003, 10:20 AM
Love_Spell_6 Love_Spell_6 is offline
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I figured I'd be the only voice of dissent..but that's ok

I think the more tolerant this society becomes of every little perversion one wants to do...the more INtolerant we are actually becoming toward those that want to stand up for what they believe in based on their moral beliefs. If you change the institution of marriage from a man and a woman....what's to stop it from including bygamy/polygamy...or marrying a cow! Although I think homosexuality is a perversion of humanity, that is NOT why I believe the definition of marriage should only include a man and a woman. I think once you change it, the floodgates will be open and you'll have Mike Tyson trying to marry his pet Tiger.

Also, it irks me to no end when people compare any facet of race/racism and homosexuality! I cannot go outside of my house and decide not to be black today! I can't cover it up nor did I have a choice in the matter! (except Michael Jackson)...however I no several gay, bi people who can and do. To compare one fallacious argument (how SOME whites felt about interracial marriage) does not make a valid point on the subject of homosexual marriage. And this is not some "white man" argument!

A man with 16 wives may raise good children to...but that doesn't mean that is a good situation for children to grow up in. It amazes me how topics we dispute today would have had people marching in the streets protesting years ago. Some would say that is progress, but I think it's just another sign of our society going to hell in a handbasket!

And someone mentioned that people are confusing their religious beliefs with their political views. Uh....well if that's what you believe, are you supposed to be a part time Christian?? Are you supposed to leave what you believe outside the Courts and Congress? I wonder is that what God wants his people to do...be one way in the church...but another way at work.... Secularists pride themselves on passing laws based on how they feel...but its not popular to do when you are "religious." ANd again, I think the issue has less to do with how you may feel about what someone does with their partner, and more about the definition of marriage between a MAN and a WOMAN.

If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. Just because its popular today to be liberal and accepting of everything folx want to do..doesn't mean I'm going to follow the crowd. Its an unpopular viewpoint...but that's just my opinion..
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  #8  
Old 11-21-2003, 10:49 AM
Neosoulchild Neosoulchild is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Love_Spell_6


And someone mentioned that people are confusing their religious beliefs with their political views. Uh....well if that's what you believe, are you supposed to be a part time Christian?? Are you supposed to leave what you believe outside the Courts and Congress? I wonder is that what God wants his people to do...be one way in the church...but another way at work....
Very well said. I too agree with you. What is the country coming too? I know it sounds cliche' but we need to do some serious praying for this country, and where it is headed. While I do not agree with some of the things that President Bush has done while in office, I do applaud him for not being afraid to profess his faith.
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  #9  
Old 11-21-2003, 10:54 AM
Love_Spell_6 Love_Spell_6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neosoulchild
What is the country coming too? I know it sounds cliche' but we need to do some serious praying for this country, and where it is headed.

While I do not agree with some of the things that President Bush has done while in office, I do applaud him for not being afraid to profess his faith.
Amen!! I am so scared for the direction this country is going in....
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  #10  
Old 11-21-2003, 11:14 AM
Honeykiss1974 Honeykiss1974 is offline
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I could have sworn there was a previous thread on here about this topic, but I can't find it.

Anyway, most folks know that I don't support gay marriages, but what bothers me more is when people compare their struggle to that of African Americans.

The two are like oil and water.
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  #11  
Old 11-21-2003, 11:46 AM
Love_Spell_6 Love_Spell_6 is offline
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1963 Communist Goals

I'm kinda hijacking my own thread.....I am posting theCommunist Goals from 1963 that were read into the United States Congressional Record by the Honorable A.S. Herlong of Florida in 1963. (In response to Neosoulchild's remarks about what is the world coming to These are from the book "The Naked Communist) by Cleon Skousen..and they indicate what needs to happen to turn the United States into a Communist Nation. Its scary to see how many of these have already been accomplished.

HOw many can you count??

[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament of the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand.

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use united force to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction over nations and individuals alike.
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  #12  
Old 11-21-2003, 03:59 PM
estrogirl estrogirl is offline
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One doesn't choose to be gay any more than one chooses to be black. It's hysterical to me when people suggest homosexuality is a choice. Why would anyone choose to live on the fringes of society and be discriminated against?

I'm sensing alot of homophobia here, which isn't surprising given how many of us were brought up in the church. But what's sad about that it the Delta who told me about this message board is a lesbian. I hope those of you in these sisterhoods understand that some of the women you bonded wih/cried with/laughed with are gay.

And I don't understand this fear about the direction this country is going into. Look at where it started and what it's based on--slavery, murder and rape. Our first presidents were slave holders. Whatever is going on now, as far a is business as usual.
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  #13  
Old 11-21-2003, 06:13 PM
Wonderful1908 Wonderful1908 is offline
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I support this isuue 100%, gays have the right as human beings to share their lives with whomever they want. The basis for it being wrong is a moral/religious one as well stated earlier by Classylady.. Imagine if one tried to stop a tall and short person from being married based on their morals. I know sexuality is much more extreme but when we allow people to force their views and opinions on our right to make decisions then we as a society are failing at the principal of democracy.
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Old 11-21-2003, 09:20 PM
Love_Spell_6 Love_Spell_6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wonderful1908
I support this isuue 100%, gays have the right as human beings to share their lives with whomever they want. The basis for it being wrong is a moral/religious one as well stated earlier by Classylady.. Imagine if one tried to stop a tall and short person from being married based on their morals. I know sexuality is much more extreme but when we allow people to force their views and opinions on our right to make decisions then we as a society are failing at the principal of democracy.
Yea...if a man wants to marry his pet donkey...why not!! He's a human being and has the right to share his bed and his life with whomever he wants...
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Old 11-21-2003, 09:26 PM
Dionysus Dionysus is offline
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Since we have separation of church and state, I do not see any reason for banning same-sex marriages. I have not heard of any valid non-religious reasons why homosexual marriage should be prohibited. This should've been challenged a long time ago.
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Last edited by Dionysus; 11-21-2003 at 10:02 PM.
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