Why some rules hurt more than help

[amanda6035]

So....I'm probably gonna get a butt chewing for this one, but I wanted to see if anybody had been in a similar situation...

As I've said before in other threads, I go to a VERY small school. We have two national sororities on campus, us (Alpha Xi Delta) and Gamma Phi Beta. Our school has a total female population of 17%. We have 6 members, they have 7. Anything to boost our numbers would be a good thing, right????

Well, this fall, SPSU is going to be a satellite campus for the Floyd College Nursing degree, which is a 2 year program. It has been estimated that this program will bring approximately 700 girls to campus. Technically, they will still be Floyd students, NOT SPSU students, but they will pay SPSU activity fees, health fees, etc etc etc. Our Greek advisor has already obtained permission for both sororities to be allowed to recruit these girls. Unfortunately, National Panhellenic has not.

Both Sorority advisors have been working with their panhellenic delegates, trying to convince them to allow us to recruit these girls. From what I've heard so far, it's a hard case to win because these girls will only be members for 2 years. Why is that any different than a junior rushing? We're at a school where we dont discriminate based on age, class rank, or whatever - BECAUSE we're a small school. We can't afford to turn away a student just because they are a little bit older, or a little bit further along in their classes.

Our fear is that, if we aren't allowed to recruit these girls, that they will see us, see our "greek life" and want to participate. And because we'll have to turn them away (if Panhellenics final ruling is still "no,") we're afraid that local sororities are going to pop up all over the place, because these girls want to get involved, and legally, we couldnt let them join us.

PLEASE don't read more into that than what it is. I AM NOT BASHING local sororities. We're worried that if some of the floyd girls start their own local sorority, that SPSU girls will want to join them, because of the cheaper dues, and whatever other reason they might want to. And unlike us, the local sorority wouldnt have any restrictions on who they could recruit - if a SPSU girl wants to join the local sorority, she could, but not vice versa. What happens to the national sororties after that? Especially if all the girls who the national sororities would be eligible to recruit, decided they would rather join the local sorority instead?

I don't want to go further into our worries because I'm afraid I've already stuck my foot in my mouth. Has any other school had to deal with a situation similar to this? Does anybody know why Panhellenic rules the way they do? WHY, on a campus as small as ours, would they DILIBERATLY hurt us? This could be SO GOOD for our campus, and our greek life...and ruling hasn't been made yet, but I haven't heard anything good so far. From what I've been told so far, Panhellenic has a hard time making exceptions to the "rules" and supposefly one of the rules is that the girls must be members of 4 year degree programs. Again, WHY would a conference, who is supposed to be in our favor (and this is AZD and GPB working together) rule against us? I just dont get it.

Like I said...from what Ive heard so far, there isnt a final ruling yet...but they've been discussing it for over 2 months now. I just wish they would think about what in the best intrest for us, rather than sticking to the way things have always been done. If there's someone on the panhellenic council reading this...i wish there was a way to change your mind in favor of us...

Any thoughts? Comments? Anybody been in a similar situation and how you got through it?

[CarolinaCutie]

I certainly understand your position. I think, if I were in your shoes, I would feel the same way. But if NPC were to make an exception for your school, it would set a precedent of allowing girls at 2 year colleges to join sororities. Once it's happened at your school, other people with similar situations would start popping up all over the place. And unfortunately, I doubt that it would be possible for the administration of both schools to consider these woman as SPSU students SOLELY for the purpose of allowing them to participate in Greek Life.

[Zillini]

Wow, I'm really surprised by NPC's ruling. They didn't give you a reason? There's got to be a reason then maybe you and the rest of us could understand. I'll bet your Greek Advisor knows why. Wonder why s/he isn't sharing that info? You could have someone contact your Int'l NPC Delegate for some help or insight.

The only drawback I could see in recruiting these women is that from what I understand they will be 3rd year nursing students. It's been my experience that this is a very demanding major and by 3rd year they are starting in hospital practicums (sp?) and similar work. They're time can be more limited than students in other majors. Yet I've known alot of nursing majors that were very active and valued members. Then again it wasn't their new member year.

[amanda6035]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
And unfortunately, I doubt that it would be possible for the administration of both schools to consider these woman as SPSU students SOLELY for the purpose of allowing them to participate in Greek Life.

But they're gonna be allowed to participate in ANY OTHER organization on campus...the student newspaper, the campus activities board, any professional organization, etc etc etc. They will have access to the rec center, and anything and everything else than any other student at SPSU has access to. The only difference is their degree with say Floyd instead of Southern Polytechnic.

[adpiucf]

NPC is for undergraduate women at 4 year institutions. Their interpretation is that students enrolling in a 2 year degree at your 4 year institution do not qualify.

You would be better served working with your nationals and the other sorority to boost recruitment numbers by promoting your chapters to the eligible PNM's than going after an issue that will not be resolved to your liking.

[tunatartare]

PM Buttonz about this. I'm not sure of the details of what exactly happened so I don't wanna say too much for fear of giving out inaccurate info, but I think her school and IGC did vote to allow all of the sororities there (both the NPC's and locals) to recruit girls from a nearby college. I'm not sure if that school was a 2 year or a 4 year though. There is an Alpha Xi Delta chapter at her school (Brooklyn College), so you could try getting in touch with their advisor or someone from that chapter. Good luck!

[amanda6035]

Originally posted by adpiucf
NPC is for undergraduate women at 4 year institutions. Their interpretation is that students enrolling in a 2 year degree at your 4 year institution do not qualify.

You would be better served working with your nationals and the other sorority to boost recruitment numbers by promoting your chapters to the eligible PNM's than going after an issue that will not be resolved to your liking.

Which is totally retarded because you have girls who dont finish school or transfer out. Why not make them sign a "I promise I'm going to be enrolled in this school for 4 years" contracts while youre at it? It doesnt take into consideration the girls who join after their firt semester in school, or even the girls who already have plans to transfer (IE: lots of spsu students do core classes at SPSU and transfer to GA Tech for Bachelors degrees...granted, there is a AZD chapter there, but thats besides the point...not to mention that you cant FORCE someone to affiliate.)

It's like communism...sounds like a good idea, but it doesnt work. The whole reasoning behind doing it doesnt always get the intended results.

And there's no reason to be rude. We're already doing everything that we possibly can do boost our numbers.

[PsychTau]

Don't forget that these nursing students will NOT be SPSU students. There's not only a liability issue there...but your National Constitution probably has some sort of statement in there forbidding members who are not full time (usually 12 credits or more) students of the school that hosts the chapter.

I definitely don't know all the details, but from the basics that you describe it sounds like that Floyd College of Nursing will be leasing (for lack of a better word) classroom and office space from SPSU for their nursing program. Chances are, this will happen for only a few years until Floyd builds up a student base enough to get their own buildings/campus.

So, this is what you've got going:[list=1][*]The nursing students are not officially SPSU students[*]They are only students of a two year program (not Bachelor's program) that is not a school/division of a senior college or university.[*]This nursing program will probably not be a permanent part of SPSU (unless SPSU absorbs it...in which case the students become SPSU students).[/list=1]

In the NPC MOI, Unanimous Agreement III:
2. To be eligible to pledge an NPC fraternity chapter on the campus where a woman is enrolled, she shall be regularly matriculated according to the definition of matriculation established by that institution.
*Therefore, if they aren't defined as "regularly matriculating students" at SPSU, they cannot be members of your organization.

Unanimous Agreement V:
1. <snip>...NPC requirements for a host institution, i.e., the institution must be a senior college or university that is authorized to confer a Bachelor's Degree and that has received a a satisfactory rating by the pertinent recognized regional association...<snip>(you have to be accredited)
*If SPSU (which fits the above requirement) were to define the Floyd students as "regularly matriculated", they'd probably have to do all of Gen Ed classes, complete 4 years and receive a Bachelors in Nursing (instead of an Associates or whatever it's called in a 2 year program). Is there a chance of that happening?

[total unfounded speculation]The NPC decision probably isn't being driven by how long they will be members, it's being driven by the fact that they aren't "regularly matriculated" at SPSU.

[more speculation] I wonder if they will be allowed to get involved in ANY SPSU organizations...depends on how the school defines them. If the Floyd students start their own organizations, then it stands to reason that SPSU students couldn't join those organizations. It would be like having two seperate schools on the same city block, sharing some of the same buildings. [/speculation]

Keep us informed of what happens!!
PsychTau

[PsychTau]

I was composing my long winded post while you were posting this...

Originally posted by amanda6035
Which is totally retarded because you have girls who dont finish school or transfer out. Why not make them sign a "I promise I'm going to be enrolled in this school for 4 years" contracts while youre at it?

The rule doesn't state that the member MUST stay in school 4 years...it states that the member must be ENROLLED at a senior college or university that is authorized to confer a Bachelor's Degree, commonly known as a 4 year college. (see my previous post)

Here's what I would bring up to administration....if these people are not going to be considered ENROLLED STUDENTS at SPSU, how can they participate in other student organizations? I'd be looking at the other campus organization's constitutions...even SGA and the newspaper...they probably say that their membership is open to SPSU students only.

PsychTau

[amanda6035]

Originally posted by PsychTau

I definitely don't know all the details, but from the basics that you describe it sounds like that Floyd College of Nursing will be leasing (for lack of a better word) classroom and office space from SPSU for their nursing program. Chances are, this will happen for only a few years until Floyd builds up a student base enough to get their own buildings/campus.

From what I've heard the reason they are "leasing" at SPSU is not for lack of space at their own campus, but the wide demand for a location closer to downtown atlanta. Floyd is located in Rome, which is about an hour and a half north of Atlanta, and we're in Marietta, 20 minutes from downtown. Alot of Floyd students are commuters, and the school is finally cooperating with the need for a satellite campus. That's just what I've heard. Whether it's true or not is a different story.

And I'm not sure about the whole organizations thing either....somehow I have a feeling that its NOT going to be 2 campuses sharing a city block...they may have some of their own, but I can just about gauantee that they'll be involved in the other activities on campus.

I can understand why most 2 year colleges have local sororities. It makes sense, because of the high turnover rate...but you would think that in a circumstance such as this, that they would be able to join in on the benefits of being a part of a national organization.

Yeah, I'll definitely keep y'all posted on what happens. I'm gonna be a big baby for a second: "It's just not fair!"

[PsychTau]

ETA: I was posting this second long winded post while you were posting above!! What timing!!
ETA2: To correct my numbers/math down below!

In order to aid us in our discussion, here's the press release giving more details about the agreement:

GHC to hold classes at Southern Polytechnic

Southern Polytechnic State University will provide dedicated instructional and support space on its campus in Marietta, on a rental basis, for use by Georgia Highlands College (GHC) beginning with the summer semester in June 2005. GHC, a two-year college of the University System of Georgia, was previously known as Floyd College until the Board of Regents approved the new name in April 2005.
The arrangement is based on the need for the University System of Georgia to accommodate Georgia Highlands’ students who live in the Cobb County area. There is currently no two-year college in the University System of Georgia offering courses in Cobb County. An estimated 1,000 GHC students could be taking advantage of the opportunity to attend classes on SPSU’s Marietta campus. GHC also holds classes at two sites in Rome and will add a Cartersville campus after its completion in August.

The classes offered by GHC at Southern Polytechnic are two-year program core curriculum subjects and will serve a different population of students than the bachelor’s and master’s degrees offered by Southern Polytechnic.

“This collaboration is part of the University System’s strategic goal of increasing access to higher education in Georgia,” said Dr. Lisa A. Rossbacher, president of Southern Polytechnic. “Southern Polytechnic and Georgia Highlands serve different types of students, with different academic goals, and we are pleased to be working together to serve the educational needs of Cobb County and the region.”

As part of the agreement between the two institutions, GHC students will be able to purchase SPSU meal plans, live in the privately-owned housing on the University’s campus, and, through student recreational fees, participate in student activities and utilize SPSU’s recreational facilities. The SPSU Bookstore will carry course books required by Georgia Highlands College.

GHC will provide its own admissions, advising, financial aid, and tutoring services support staff, and their faculty will teach all of the GHC courses. In addition, GHC will employ a librarian to serve its students in the SPSU Library.

The dedicated space for GHC’s classes was created by developing more efficient use of existing facilities on SPSU’s campus and remodeling classroom and lab space. The remodeling and renovation of instructional space was made possible through funding from the University System of Georgia’s Board of Regents.

The ultimate goal of this new agreement is to provide quality learning experiences for all students and to assist in expanding access to education for Georgia students, a primary mission of the University System of Georgia.

*************************
(Bold is my emphasis)

According to this information, these people will NOT be SPSU students, therefore they will NOT be students enrolled at a senior college or university...they will be enrolled at a 2 year community college. They will share space with SPSU (probably not a bad business move). Unfortunately, this does not fall within NPC guidelines for membership. I'm sorry.

The only thing that is slightly unclear is the statement through student recreational fees, participate in student activities and utilize SPSU’s recreational facilities. By definition, a student ACTIVITY is an event on campus (a speaker, a concert, a carnival)...a student ORGANIZATION is not the same thing as an ACTIVITY. So, they may not actually be allowed to join any SPSU organizations.

You said in your first post that you go to a VERY small school (I don't think this qualifies as "VERY" small...the school I advise is less than 2,000 undergrad and grad total. We have 4 sororities, right now at 25-30 members each). According to SPSU's information, approximately 4,000 students are enrolled. You say 17% are women, which makes approximately 680 women on campus. SPSU's website says 22% are women, which makes approximately 880 women. So you're looking at a potential member pool of 680-880. (I don't have full/part time stats).

I am saying this in the nicest, most Panhellenic way possible: What are these women on your campus looking for in an organization, and are you offering that to them? If you don't know what they're looking for in an organization, ASK THEM!!!

Getting the GHC students may not be a battle that you want to waste your energy on.

PsychTau

[amanda6035]

I am saying this in the nicest, most Panhellenic way possible: What are these women on your campus looking for in an organization, and are you offering that to them? If you don't know what they're looking for in an organization, ASK THEM!!!

Yeah...the whole 680-800 thing. I just have a hard time believing that. i dont see girls on campus that much...I'm wondering where they are! I think alot of it has to do with the fact that SPSU has ALOT of nontraditional students. We also have alot of foreign exchange students (it never ceases to amaze me how we always get a group of 5 or 6 chinese exchange students show up to formal recruitment...and then they decide that since they are only in the states for 1 semester, they decide not to do it).

MOST of the girls are architecture majors...and we're always given the excuse "I'm in architecture, I dont have time for outside activities"...I don't know how we can convince these girls that there REALLY is time for it. Our chapter is actually going through a bunch of changes right now. We've got some AWESOME ideas for the fall. It might take a semester for it's effect to show on campus, but who knows, maybe by the spring we'll have made a name for ourselves and the way we're gonna do things, so maybe that will help convince some of them.

I think things are going to be okay this year, in fact, one girl that I tried recruiting last year and turned me down time after time after time, has approached ME now, asking questions, and has even said she's gonna come to formal recruitment. So, maybe it wont be that bad. I guess I'm just being greedy. More girls on campus, so i want them, that's all!

[PsychTau]

Can I make another suggestion?

Events like "Keg Bowl" and "Goat Night" (are the rules actually saying that part of the competition is drinking a margarita???) probably aren't appealing to the women on campus. I see that your Greek Council is laden with testosterone...I encourage you to work with the other sorority on your campus to plan events that would appeal to women. The guys don't have to come...it might be better if they didn't.

Sorry for getting off topic...

PsychTau

[PsychTau]

Originally posted by amanda6035
MOST of the girls are architecture majors...and we're always given the excuse "I'm in architecture, I dont have time for outside activities

OK...make friends with an architecture student. You don't have to get her to join, but I'm sure you're a nice person...make friends. Learn what her schedule is...learn what her time demands are...learn how a sorority might be able to support her in her career goals...in her life goals...in her daily life. Work with the Architecture department to bring in a speaker (surely you can find an Alpha Xi that's an architect?) to talk about women in architecture. Give 'em a spa day...not a "Spa Day COB Event", just a spa day. Make friends. Talk to them. Ask them what's missing in their life. If it's a social activity, make it so that they can attend one. Give back to the students on your campus. They don't have to join.

But people will be watching. And those people might join.

PsychTau

[amanda6035]

Originally posted by PsychTau
Can I make another suggestion?

Events like "Keg Bowl" and "Goat Night" (are the rules actually saying that part of the competition is drinking a margarita???) probably aren't appealing to the women on campus. I see that your Greek Council is laden with testosterone...I encourage you to work with the other sorority on your campus to plan events that would appeal to women. The guys don't have to come...it might be better if they didn't.

Sorry for getting off topic...

PsychTau

HAHAHAH!!!!!!!!! Yeah...I know. We didnt even participate in goat night last year... (our first year as a chapter) we just watched, and we were HORRIFIED. We are working on some changes, to make a more traditional greek week (with different theme days - rather than sports the whole freakin week). I think the new plan is to have Greek Olympics (to do the sport thing) in the Spring, and Greek Week (which will include goat night - and other theme days) in the Fall. Those are plans still in the making though.

And yes, one part of goat night is how fast you can eat 6 krystals and to chug a margarita. Its a frozen virgin margarita though, which makes it so hard cause it tastes BAD..but then again, would we REALLY have REAL margaritas for something like this?

I've already told my girls that I REFUSE to participate in goat night if changes aren't made. Not gonna say what any of the other organizations said or did on stage, but during the "interview with a goat" segment, lets just put it this way...I don't want to buy into the stereotype that greeks are all about sex and drinking. A couple of slight inuendos are one thing, but when your whole skit revolves around it, it gives greek life on campus a bad name.

The Keg Bowl is just a football game. The trophy is an empty Keg that winner holds for a year and gets to paint and graffitti to their liking. That's all that is. Where the tradiotion started, I havent a clue.

Yeah, i definitely want to do other events with GPB...but it's been hard. Most of us get along with each other, but theres some animosity between some of the girls and it makes it difficult to plan events together. I wish people would just grow up and quit the whole "i'm better than you" drama. One idea we have..not a recruitment event...but is to do an all sorority sisterhood retreat...We got the idea at convention from another chapter whose school now requires the event. Wether or not we can actually make it happen is another story.