NPHC vs. 25/52 Family-Why the animosity?

[pirate00]

This is the first I've heard about any feud between the NPHC and APO/GSS family. Maybe it's because I don't attend a HBCU, but I am an APO Brother. I can only speak for ECU, though. We have both APO and a GSS chapter here and the "Divine Nine" are represented here (except for Iota Phi Theta) and we seem to co-exist peacefully.

[gamma_girl52]

Oh boy Rain Man...hopefully this thread will not get flames all over it!

Before I start I want to say that I am speaking only for myself and for my chapter, not for anyone else. Every chapter has its own experiences.

Having said that, from my experience it is been because Gamma Sigs carry themselves as an African-American based sorority on campus. We Gamma Sigs know that our sorority was not founded by black women alone.

Also, a lot of the things we do aren't looked at as "original" such as our call, "Wee-Oop" (which is grounds alone for raised eyebrows) our handsigns and our colors. In short, we are viewed as a fake sorority who has nothing better to do but copy what other sororities have already. I have heard that numerous times and in a nutshell, that is the problem. On some campuses, if you are a Gamma Sig it isn't even feasible for you to pursue a sorority in the Nine.

Now my response to this is simple. Everything I do as a Sig, everything that Sigs do means something to us. We aren't fake, we're not trying to be like anyone else. We are who we are. We are a sorority whose main focus is service, and it is in our hearts in minds with everything we do. When I wear my letters I wear them with pride. I do the best service that I can do because the people that I serve deserve it. That's my explanation everytime I get asked why Gamma Sigma Sigma is the way it is on my campus. We are supportive of our greeks and in turn, we get invited to many greek events and are asked to participate. Trust, it was not like that in the beginning, but my chapter continues to do their required service and we just be ourselves. We've earned the respect of the greek community even though we're not "greek" by NPC/NPHC standards.

Another thing, it is not the same on every campus. Every GSS chapter doesn't have a line, or stroll, or do things of that sort. Some chapters are all-black, others all-white, others a mix, I can go on and on. The point here is, no matter what, every last one of them is a sister and I will be there for them. I will serve with them and I will support them.

Sorry bout the long rant...but I always welcome questions if I didn't cover everything in this post!

In Service,
gamma_girl52
Gamma Sigma Sigma National Service Sorority

[AKA2D '91]

RM,

I NEVER knew there was "tension". I mean in college (undergrad and grad, both major HBCUs in the south), APhiO really wasn't an "issue", so there wasn't any "tension".

I don't know what's going on now, cause I am basically "removed" from both universities as far as campus life is concerned. I am only a alumnus who "gives back" and an active member in alumni affairs on the local level...

Um, interesting topic, though...

See, you do learn alot from these boards...

[dstbrat]

i think that really sums up the reason why there is tension between the two. i know on my campus there was a great deal of discussion when the organizations surfaced because it seemed like people who had tried to pledge NPHC and didn't went ggs or apo and there was some rivalry there. the apo's did not make any friends with the omegas by calling themselves a-phi-ques. they alson wore camos and boots painted gold, so, of course there was talk about that. and the call was an obvious point of contention with Delta's and AKA'a alike. so, it was alot of bad blood. especially considering when they preached service but took on alot of the trappings of NPHC orgs (stepping, probating, calling, etc.)and the arguement is that NPHC doesn't own any of these things, but, they are traditions that we hold dear.

[Rain Man]

Originally posted by pirate00:
This is the first I've heard about any feud between the NPHC and APO/GSS family. Maybe it's because I don't attend a HBCU, but I am an APO Brother. I can only speak for ECU, though. We have both APO and a GSS chapter here and the "Divine Nine" are represented here (except for Iota Phi Theta) and we seem to co-exist peacefully.

If you are a predominately Caucasian and coed chapter of APO, chances are you will coexist very well with NPHC. What about if you are a Black APO/GSS chapter that shares the yard with NPHC?

[Rain Man]

Originally posted by dstbrat:
i think that really sums up the reason why there is tension between the two. i know on my campus there was a great deal of discussion when the organizations surfaced because it seemed like people who had tried to pledge NPHC and didn't went ggs or apo and there was some rivalry there. the apo's did not make any friends with the omegas by calling themselves a-phi-ques. they alson wore camos and boots painted gold, so, of course there was talk about that. and the call was an obvious point of contention with Delta's and AKA'a alike. so, it was alot of bad blood. especially considering when they preached service but took on alot of the trappings of NPHC orgs (stepping, probating, calling, etc.)and the arguement is that NPHC doesn't own any of these things, but, they are traditions that we hold dear.

A few questions, if you don't mind dstbrat:

- What school did you attend as an undergrad?

- If all the NPHC orgs proclaim they are service orgs as opposed to social orgs, but they also step, have calls, chants, etc., what would be the problem with 25/52 following suit if they are non-NPHC service orgs?

- Do you feel that only NPHC orgs should or be entitled to step, have calls, chants, etc.? How would you feel if SAEs, Sig Eps, Chi Os, Pi Phis, Lambda Chis, began to take on the NPHC social aspect in their orgs?

- In short, is the historically racial aspect truly the dividing line between NPHC and 25/52?

MG73

[12dn94dst]

Interesting. I, too, had no clue there was animosity among NPHC groups and APO & GSS. I DON'T think it was because of the racial make-up of the organization. Most of the greeks on the yard when I was in school either had no clue APO is a "white" organization or they did & didn't care. There was a little tension on my campus because of the things dstbrat mentioned. In addition, for whatever reason, some members of the APO chapter (we didn't have a GSS chapter) could not or would not understand why they were not allowed in NPHC meetings.

I didn't mind that they wanted to step, but regarding wearing gold boots, calling themselves a-phi-ques, using a hand sign that was very similar to a Sigma hand sign, being a co-ed fraternity (although the chapter was male) that had female sweethearts, among other things that are readily associated with an NPHC group, gave the impression, to me and others that mentioned it to me, that they were confused. Some spoke out, as RM does, about the elitist attitude of the NPHC groups yet they were emulating some of the things that we did. Sadly, they were brushed off as a joke by the non-greeks and most greeks because of it.

[This message has been edited by 12dn94dst (edited April 19, 2001).]

[prettypoodle6]

my campus didnt have any alpha phi omega's or gamma sigma sigmas, but i can speak on a time when when some of my sorors had "issues" with gamma sigma sigma about 5 years ago....

i dont think that there is tension between the NPHC and the 25/52 family as a whole. To my understanding (and from what I've noticed), the only chapters that get beef from "us" are those that are predominately black.

Now, (and someone please feel to correct me if i'm just all wrong..) the predominately black chapters are the ones that have adopted such things as a call (wee-oop), a handsign (looks just like sgrho's, except the hand faces outwards instead of inwards), strolls..... these are things that are not official as far at the the (inter)national body is concerned.

and i'm pretty sure that these things have very special meanings to the members, but some of us dont understand (me being one of them) why if particular chapters wanted to take on these (historically NPHC) traditions, would they choose things that would APPEAR to be a combination of all of our stuff (not implying that it is!).

that's the ONLY reason why i think tension exists between the groups (just being honest!).

[DoggyStyle82]

In an effort to avoid controversy, I will be as diplomatic as possible. My frat has a serious problem with people calling themselves A-Phi-Q. Your org has no right to appropriate the letter Q. Omega is not the greek letter for Q so you have no historical basis for using it. It is blatant biting. Gold Boots? Again, no historical basis and blatant biting. I can assure you that no one other than an Omega would dare walk my campus in Gold Boots. Some APO's have even dared top brand themselves with an Omega. What is that about? Needless to say, that APO had alterations done to his brand. How can a call or hand sign, line dances, probate shows, lines with #'s, crossing jackets, mean something to an org when it is not practiced by 75% of the membership,and has no historical basis? To end whatever beef that you believe exists, return to Your Roots and Your Purpose and stop imitating the NPHC in ways that are not flattering.

[Rain Man]

Over the last nine years I have wondered why there seems to be, for lack of a better word, "tension" between the NPHC orgs and the two major service GLOs, Alpha Phi Omega and Gamma Sigma Sigma. Most of the NPHC orgs proclaim that they are service organizations. So is APO and GSS (collectively referred to as the 25/52 family b/c of the years they were founded). Is the fact that one group is historically black and one isn't the major factor? I ask this because I have heard from numerous Gamma Sigs that they are heavily hated on by NPHCers on their yards for reasons unknown. As far as frat, well AFAIC they hold their own. BTW, I am referring primarily to HBCU schools, or schools with a predominately black 25/52 chapter.

In 1996, our National Membership and Extension Chair went so far as to mail a letter to all nine NPHC organization in an attempt to bridge the gap between APO and the NPHC--only two sororities responded--I have copies of both letters.

It seems to me that the major difference is that the NPHC caters primarily to the black community and the 25/52 family does not. I saw on one NPHC website a subtle condescending reference to 25/52, in that "some GLOs do not have memberships that caters to just women or just men. They just serve the general population." What the... is that supposed to mean? After reading numerous rude and nasty posts from NPHCers in various 25/52 guestbooks, I have to ask you all, What is the real problem?

Match Game '73

[gamma_girl52]

Hmm...interesting discussion this is turning out to be!

Sister PrettyPoodle6, I understand what you are saying. That is the problem right there, it's not that the issue is that we step and stroll and everything, I think it's the way we're doing it.

Now I guess I could sit here and talk all day about how those signs and calls are of no disrespect to any of the organizations of the Nine, but I don't think that would help. The issue here is originality. If we used different things that did not look so close then perhaps we would not have problems. Better yet, perhaps if we didn't do it at all, that would solve the problem too.

It's not a secret that neither Alpha Phi Omega or Gamma Sig was founded to be this way, hence DoggyStyle's statement of "return to your roots and purpose instead of copying the NPHC". I ask, so if it's not practiced by the majority of the organization, then it should not be done? I can list other organizations that were not founded by African-Americans that do the same thing we do. True, not every chapter in GSS is the same as my chapter, but that doesn't mean that I can't still do it. The roots and purpose of my sorority is service, friendship and equality and I adhere to those. I feel where you're coming from, but I had to disagree on that.

The thing that I'm seeing is that it really depends on the campus and the greeks there...because my chapter has not had any altercations with any of the greeks on campus (other than being called out at a probate) and we're generally respected overall. Yes, we still get looks, but you learn to get past that and focus on what you should be doing and that is service to the community.

[Kimmie1913]

My question then is this-

For all of the defense to the social behavior of APO and GSS on HBCU campuses taht this thread suggests goes on- what is the point? How did it come to be and if it was not begun out of emulating the nPHC orgs, then out of what? Many of the characteristics sited (probates, stepping, strolling, lines, line number, calls, signs...) while unofficial are social hallmarks of NPHC orgs. and we all know that. They are common throughout chapters throughout the country. They are not chapter specific and for that reason are thought of as distict to the orgs. If what a chapter of APO or GSS is doing in that reagard

1. is only taking place on HBCU campusses or in chapters that are predominantly African-American
2. are mirroring actions of NPHC orgs (whether the sign, call etc. seem to mimic someone else's or not) and
3. Are not something that would be understood or recognized by a chapter of the SAME ORG. on another campus then it would be very easy for an onlooker to feel as though it is an attempt to copy NPHC orgs.

Now that is not to say that another group who has done all those things from the start would not get the cold shoulder from NPHC greeks if it is a greek letter org os African Americans but when it is a more select group of a much larger antional body who participate in it like this has been described it looks even nore like people in places heavily populated with NPHC orgs are trying to emulate what they see.

**Note- this is all news to me and I am just trying to understand how these chapters even came to have a call and sign, etc. in the fisrt place. I went to a PWI where they were of no consequence to the NPHC as they were predominantly white chapters. The school was very racialized and only African Americans who did not generally associate themselves with other African American students on campus joined Fats or Sororities outside of the NPHC at all.***

[dstbrat]

i suppose my yard is a bit of an enigma because we are a large state majority institution. so i suppose that chapter functions as one would on an hbcu campus. the gss clearly had a chip on their shoulders about being considered as "real" greeks. they would routinely come to nphc forums and create controversy. to respond to rainman, i think in other regions of the country, nphc organizations are having discussions about who is entitled to our traditions. especially with newer ethnic fraternities and sororities who step and stroll and call and all of those other things. so, i don't think this arguement is not unique to apo and gss.

[Rain Man]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
In an effort to avoid controversy, I will be as diplomatic as possible. My frat has a serious problem with people calling themselves A-Phi-Q. Your org has no right to appropriate the letter Q. Omega is not the greek letter for Q so you have no historical basis for using it. It is blatant biting. Gold Boots? Again, no historical basis and blatant biting. I can assure you that no one other than an Omega would dare walk my campus in Gold Boots. Some APO's have even dared top brand themselves with an Omega. What is that about? Needless to say, that APO had alterations done to his brand. How can a call or hand sign, line dances, probate shows, lines with #'s, crossing jackets, mean something to an org when it is not practiced by 75% of the membership,and has no historical basis? To end whatever beef that you believe exists, return to Your Roots and Your Purpose and stop imitating the NPHC in ways that are not flattering.

Thank you for your post, DoggyStyle

I will try to address your concerns, point by point.

As far as our org having no right to appropriate the term "Q", That is a VERY moot point. For the record, there is a Black Christian fraternity/sorority called Alpha Nu Omega, founded at Morgan State in 1988, and they address themselves as A-N-Qs. Many Black Americans, Greek or not, refer to the letter Omega as Q. I would venture to say that it is an aid to distinguish Omega from Omicron. If our org was to abolish the term A-Phi-Q as a means to address ourselves as of tommorow morning, chances are the Black community, Greek or not, would still address us as A-Phi-Q. So while I understand your point, your argument IMHO is rather weak.

Gold boots? I honestly cannot comment on that since I have never wore gold boots or seen any bruh in person wear them--I'm not really a boot wearer to begin with. I have, however, twirled a blue and gold cane. My reason, I find it to be a unique talent, it is often a therapeutic stress reliever, and no matter what anyone says, no one has any right to regulate or legislate a TALENT, which is all it boils down to. I have dueled against Kappas in cane twirling, and I hold my own very well--though I gotta work on the 2-cane routine But I digress.

Brands? Again, can't comment since I do not have one, nor do I encourage such a practice for my own personal reasons.

As far as APQ/GSS biting off NPHC, let's be honest. None of our founders did any of the superficial stuff being done today, so as far as going back to our roots, as you say, my attitude is this, Either we all do it, or none of us do it. But the NPHC has no right to legislate or regulate what other orgs are doing, whether NPHC orginated it or not. I have not heard any complaints about this being used against Latino(a) organizations, so what I feel is a heavy dose of double standards, where one non-NPHC org can do it but another can't. Let's play it fair or not at all.

Thanx again

Match Game '73

[Rain Man]

I think the reason why there is so much tensions is because the 25/52 orgs are the major non-NPHC orgs with a large minority representation, and an old minority representation.

The first Alpha Phi Omega chapter at an HBCU was at Johnson C. Smith University (Delta Phi) on April 17, 1947, while the first Gamma Sigma Sigma Chapter was at Southern University (Alpha Delta) in 1963. While both organizations picked up numerous chapters at HBCUs in the 70s, I would venture to say that similar arguments such as ours were going on two generations ago. So this is not a new problem, this is an old one that has never been resolved, but revisited over and over again. I think the NPHC, while I understand their concern for wanting to hold on to something near and dear, it is a moot point.
As far as to the sororities complaining that GSS is biting off their colors, calls, etc., I think the root issue is that GSS does this period, and they are not NPHC. Because even if the sign did not resemble SGRho, the sororites would invariably nitpick and find something else that remotely resembled something of the sororities. I had a Delta approach me and complain that GSS was using their colors (Maroon/White vs. Crimson/Cream)? Okay. It is an uphill battle to that end.

The bottom line, it seems is that 25/52 is not NPHC and NPHC wants a monopoly on their traditions. Between the Latino(a) Greek community and the growing # of Black non-NPHC orgs appearing, It is not going to happen. I think the progress will begin when NPHC works in service with 25/52 and stop fighting against them over finger formations, colors of the rainbow, whether we use the letter O as opposed to Q, and gold boots. That's childish and counterproductive to our collective contributions to the Black communtiy. (Say that 3 times real fast)

Let it go, all of us, and let's get to work!

Match Game '73