Using Frat to further personal agendas

[The Cushite]

With the recent debate about Sensuret I's book , I think this board can be helped with a more focused critique of the issue many brothers had with him. It seems as though, in his zeal to promote his book, he latently associated Alpha with the normalizing of the gay lifestyle. Now before this thread gets banned, I want to state clearly that I AM NOT HERE TO DEMEAN ANY BROTHERS WHO MAY BE GAY. I want to discuss with the brothers on this forum the issue of using the frat to further personal agendas.

I think brothers should be aware that people in society are competing for the minds of others in the midst of a society that has found itself in the middle of a post modern maylaise. We don't know what to believe anymore. What is truth/ What is right ? These things are constantly being challenged by people, and we have others who are challenging the challenges so to speak by defending traditional values and norms. In this war of ideas, people use whatever they can to see to find stability in this world. Some have resorted in trying to normalize ideas or values that to this point in our social psyche have been deemed unacceptable. One sure way to normalize an idea is to entrench it in an institution (Like Alpha). I think that is what Bro. Sensuret did, although I think he did it latently or unintentionally.

As brothers of a deeper and wider brotherhood than can't be defined by one brother's values or ideas, we have to be cogniscent of the fact that Alpha has it's own principles and values and that we would be irresponsible to represent it in any other way than what the Jewels intended. Whether it is homosexuality, promiscuity, lying, cheating, stealling, frivolity, drunkeness or even mandating that All brothers be Christian; all of these are misrepresentations. To try to normalize them by associating them with Alpha is selfish and divisive (as we saw with the issue with Bro. Sensuret). Though individual brothers may deem one better than the other, Alpha is not about any of those things. So brothers, I urge you to be critical of how each of us represents Alpha, and though there are many things that I wish personnally we could do as Alpha Men within our ranks, I recognize that I am not the only man of Alpha on the planet, and I realized that when I took the oath. So any changes a brother would like to see in Alpha must come from a respect for what the Jewels represented and being true to those core principles.

In the end, love brothers. When I say love, I don't mean an apathetic "love" that doesn't care about the well being of a brother nor respects the possiblity of a Loving God that has set forth ultimate principles of righteousness, grace, and justice. I mean that agape love that sees the best in brothers through their fallen humanity. We all got something in us that is less than honorable, but choose to find the good in every brother, and praise it and be critical of the falleness, without being disruptive with the brother.

Blackwatch!!!!!!

[ladygreek]

Your post is profound and obviously written with compassion. But I need to ask a clarifying question.

Are you saying that Sensuret was using the frat for his personal agenda by promoting his book on this site? Or are you saying he was pushing his own agenda by being an openly Gay man on this site?

The reason I ask is that one of my sorors is using this site and other Delta listserves to promote her book. But I look at it as one of the benefits of belonging to our sisterhood.

[sigmadiva]

I hope I understand the point you are trying to make. As I understand it seems to me that you are asking if it is okay for a GLO member to 'take advantage' of their membership by promoting some endeavor of theirs with the anticipation that each or most members of the organization will participate. IF that is what you are addressing, then in some instances I think it is fine for a member to utilize his/her membership for promotion, unless it is being abused.

We had a very similar situation in my grad chapter. We have a member who would only show up to meeting long enough to ask for donations for her granddaughter to help offset the cost of the granddaughter's participation in beauty pagents. At first everyone in the chapter was supportive by donating money and taking out ads. Then it got to a point where our member would only show up to meeting, ask for money then leave. She abused the generosity of the chapter. Once she started just asking for money then leaving, we stopped giving her money and she has not come back to meetings since then.

I think that if you are a member in good standing, meaning not only financial but also participate with your chapter and organization as much as possible, then it is okay to go to your GLO members and ask for support, but if you are only using them, then people realize this very quickly and put a stop to it. Nobody likes to be used, soror or frat.

[TonyB06]

Very cogent post, Bro. Cushite.

As was the case the last time the homosexuality debate hit our page, a lot was lost in "the heat" of the battle. I sat this one out because it was tired and nothing fundamentally differed from the last time this debate arose. Long story short, for every Alpha brother there is a topic (or topics) about which they will defend the honor and core values of Alpha. There can never be dishonor in that. Controversy usually brings controversy in return, and we're naive to think otherwise. (But I wish that some of the tenor of the PM discussions had come through on the public page.)

Obviously we bring our individual perspectives to any debate, but I think it takes us looking at this -- or any --issue aggregately to get a sense of the fraternity's acceptance/non-acceptance of a particular issue.

The Jewels are gone now, so the words and values found in the history book must speak for them. Present day brothers, driven first by the Godly perspective that within each of us is the capacity to rise or fall, and secondly, by the perspective that comes from true brotherhood and "the better making of men," are left to lead the continued debate about the roads we will travel and the way in which we will lead.

I'll let others analyze the alleged "motives" of the participants. The debate, however it arrived, could have been conducted on a higher plane by both sides. But realize, as I'm sure you do, that Goodwill (remains) the Monarch of this House.

"06"

[The Cushite]

The divisivness of the debate didn't center around Bro. Sensuret's pushing his book on the Alpha Ave. of GC, but that the message of the book, and his "open gayness" could become associated with Alpha Phi Alpha. Even though I don't think that He made this association intentionally, I think that perception would be that an openly gay Alpha implies that Alpha accepts homosexuality, which I believe, (and this is just me) isn't fair to the fraternity as a whole.

I do think that many homosexuals have an agenda, and rightly so (for those who agree), to try to normalize the homosexual lifestyle as much as possible (for instance the debates about gay marriage and the literature that is placed in schools that notes that "Johnnie has two dads") to try an win validation from larger society. Heck, If Bro. Sensuret I didn't have an agenda, would we even know of his sexual orientation? I think that this is where the issue of personal agendas lie. I was strictly thinking about personal agendas to normalize certain ideas, not necessarily commerce. Even if I were to start saying that since I am a Christian (which I am) and I have joined the Brotherhood, therefore the brotherhood should affirm my Christianity, I would believe that to be out of the scope of the brotherhood to do. Alpha Phi Alpha doesn't have to validate my Christianity for me to be a part of it. There are brothers who are agnostic, Muslim, Hindu, or subscribe to the Gospel of "Willie" (I actually have a chapter brother who claims this), but I will affirm that Alpha is not a Christian (nor religious ) organization. There may be many things that I can do as a Christian that will affirm some values of Alpha, but that does not make it a Christian organization. Will people associate my Christianity with Alpha, sure they will, but I will be quick to affirm that Alpha is not a religious organization, if asked.

But when people advocate for something in the name of Alpha when it is something that Alpha really doesn't affirm, then it can be percieved as trying to normalize the stance that they take, and I find that on some level disingenuious. I have searched, talked, and searched again and I can find nothing in the History book or the by laws that state that Alpha Phi Alpha affirms homosexuality, stealing, violence, religions, political parties, economic systems, or other personal beliefs that any brother may have. Alpha does state that it will not discriminate from allowing anyone to apply solely based on race, religion, or sexual preference, but as a private institution, this does not mean that we have to accept anyone we deem does not measure up .

Blackwatch!!!!!!

[ladygreek]

Thank you for your thoughtful response. But I need to ask a question and I hope you do not take it offensively.

Ever since I first learned about BGLOs I have always heard A Phi A referred to as the "gay" fraternity. This would have been before Sensuret was even born, or E. Lynn HArris for that matter.

So my question is, how did that get started in the first place, and since it has been around for so long the perception already existed that Alpha accepted or affirmed homosexuality. Sensuret did not cause this perception to be.

[KSigkid]

Perhaps I'm out of line in posting in this thread, in that I am not an Alpha...but I don't see how he had an sort of agenda. He felt comfortable enough to disclose his sexuality because he thought there were understanding, thoughtful people on the site.

I never saw in any of Sensuret's posts that he claimed that Alpha was a gay organization; rather he has often stated that it was strong brotherhood that accepted him as the person that he is.

I'm not sure where we can equate homosexuality with violence or stealing, unless all of a sudden one's sexuality is a criminal matter.

Personally I would be proud to have someone with as much character and dignity as Sensuret as a fraternity brother.

[AKA_Monet]

KSigkid--

I think what Cushite is saying is that Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. has its own ideas and agendas that they must pursue. Many of these ideas and agendas are to improve the plight of men of African descent in America and other countries where disparaged, from an educational, healthcare to scholarship and economics. It is very broad range in the services that they do. It has its own distinct flavor different from other NPHC fraternities (not suggesting the other orgs do not have their own things too, just pointing these differences).

At this time, it is "nice" to be accepting and genteel to someone who pursues a lifestyle differently than one's own... And it is also cannot be forgotten that there are too many problems that MUST be conquered before we even begin to discuss lifestyle issues. I.e. having food, clothing and shelter with a college education and a career is a primary target for all of the NPHC orgs for those of African descent in America and abroad.

Yes, it hurts when personalities must be put to the side or back burner, and, these issues are way to important for Blacks alone to eradicate. Then there are NOT that many African Americans (percentages) that actually have the education and wherewithall[sp?] to make the kinds of changes needed to adapt... Besides it takes its toll on each member, ironically, personally and psychologically...

And I do think there may need to be serious discussion in ALL BGLO of sexual preferences... The psychological issues alone with young folks conflicted against cultural norms may need discussion at a national level. Is this a new "hip" thing to do, 'cuz everyone is doing it and it is more excepting? How do you explain that concept to a 50-75 year member in a Black organization? And you cannot force it down their throats...

And these conflicted emotions causes a higher percentage of OUR young people to take unneccessary risks with their sexual health that ALSO annihilates OUR community... Forget even starting to talk about the gay marriage issue--we are stuck with "how did you test positive for the new HIV strain and how are we going to get you treated?" That goes for BOTH girls and boys under 18, no matter what their sexual preference is!!!

So how do you begin to deal with that?

Because when black kids fall, they fall fast and hard... I don't see many white folks out in the 'hood other than the police and child protective services (both governmental agencies) on a daily basis changing these paradigms... All I see are broken promises... And many folks, including Black adults, have given up...

[darling1]

Cushite your comments were extremely eloquent!

perhaps the eternal optimist in me thinks that its possible to have discussions regarding sexuality. being married i understand how difficult a conversation it is to have regarding homosexuality. my husband believes that "you love the sinner but despise the sin".

if for no other reason but to work on our youth, would it be possible to weave conversations about sexuality w/n existing mentoring programs? i am a firm believer that members of BGLO must set a higher standard for themselves. they are the leaders in the community. continue to take the initiative by moving past personal feelings to help our children increase their awareness about sex. there is too much out there. girls selling the bodies. engaging in oral sex believing that it is not intercourse. young boys turning into mysoginistic, foul mouthed hooligans, believing that kind of behavior is cute and attractive. or having sex at 17 w/o a condom and producing a child is fine. IT IS NOT. our children are dying, whether its by a weapon or by lack of positive stimulation. many of them are confused and have no appropriate role models.

it is difficult, i gather to initiate new programs especially when you encounter people who are confortable with the status quo. however many of us are young enough to foster change because we are directly affected and not too far removed from the problems that exist.

there is work to be done.

[KSigkid]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
KSigkid--

I think what Cushite is saying is that Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. has its own ideas and agendas that they must pursue. Many of these ideas and agendas are to improve the plight of men of African descent in America and other countries where disparaged, from an educational, healthcare to scholarship and economics. It is very broad range in the services that they do. It has its own distinct flavor different from other NPHC fraternities (not suggesting the other orgs do not have their own things too, just pointing these differences).

At this time, it is "nice" to be accepting and genteel to someone who pursues a lifestyle differently than one's own... And it is also cannot be forgotten that there are too many problems that MUST be conquered before we even begin to discuss lifestyle issues. I.e. having food, clothing and shelter with a college education and a career is a primary target for all of the NPHC orgs for those of African descent in America and abroad.

Yes, it hurts when personalities must be put to the side or back burner, and, these issues are way to important for Blacks alone to eradicate. Then there are NOT that many African Americans (percentages) that actually have the education and wherewithall[sp?] to make the kinds of changes needed to adapt... Besides it takes its toll on each member, ironically, personally and psychologically...

And I do think there may need to be serious discussion in ALL BGLO of sexual preferences... The psychological issues alone with young folks conflicted against cultural norms may need discussion at a national level. Is this a new "hip" thing to do, 'cuz everyone is doing it and it is more excepting? How do you explain that concept to a 50-75 year member in a Black organization? And you cannot force it down their throats...

And these conflicted emotions causes a higher percentage of OUR young people to take unneccessary risks with their sexual health that ALSO annihilates OUR community... Forget even starting to talk about the gay marriage issue--we are stuck with "how did you test positive for the new HIV strain and how are we going to get you treated?" That goes for BOTH girls and boys under 18, no matter what their sexual preference is!!!

So how do you begin to deal with that?

Because when black kids fall, they fall fast and hard... I don't see many white folks out in the 'hood other than the police and child protective services (both governmental agencies) on a daily basis changing these paradigms... All I see are broken promises... And many folks, including Black adults, have given up...

Thank you for your response. I'll reiterate that I don't mean to criticize Alpha Phi Alpha with any of my comments, I'm just really confused with this topic.

I guess I didn't see where Sensuret was taking away from any of those aims. He said that he's gay; I don't recall him ever saying that Alpha should drop it's current work and focus on the sexuality issue. In my mind, all he did was disclose his own sexuality; he didn't try to further any agenda or push any mode of thought on anyone. It seems that he was in fact a very active brother who did some great things to raise Alpha's reputation at his school.

Wouldn't this be a situation where people should, as you said, put their "personalities on the back burner," accept that there are members who are homosexual, and move on to the issues that society is facing?

I think it's entirely possible to go and try to make change in the community while still accepting the fact that you have a homosexual brother. I don't see how those are mutually exclusive.

I may just be missing the point here. I've met quite a few gay Kappa Sig brothers, and although it was an issue for some, I never heard that those brothers were taking away from the general aims of the fraternity.

Thank you for your well-thought response, though. A civil conversation over a difference of opinion can never be a bad thing.

[Professor]

Good Day to All,

I appreciate the exchange of opinions expressed by all thus far. This dialogue is tempered with respect and seemingly a willingness to be enlighten from learned individuals.

This thread seeks to engage opinions about Brother Senuret's intent. I raise the question if we do more harm than good by discussing our personal opinions of what we deem as his intent. To that end, I certainly will not imply that Brother Senuret has used Alpha to promote his book nor will I imply that his membership in Alpha serves as a trend for gay individuals seeking membership into a BGLO.
As Brother Senuret stated, he will no longer post on this avenue so me will never know his actual intent.

At all times members of the great Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. serve as a beacon of light in a dark society. We as members don't always hold high the light of Alpha. However, I suggest that the membership strive to be best of servants to all mankind in all our endeavors.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by KSigkid
I guess I didn't see where Sensuret was taking away from any of those aims. He said that he's gay; I don't recall him ever saying that Alpha should drop it's current work and focus on the sexuality issue. In my mind, all he did was disclose his own sexuality; he didn't try to further any agenda or push any mode of thought on anyone. It seems that he was in fact a very active brother who did some great things to raise Alpha's reputation at his school.

Wouldn't this be a situation where people should, as you said, put their "personalities on the back burner," accept that there are members who are homosexual, and move on to the issues that society is facing?

My Phrat Sensuret did not post on the Alpha Ave just to promote his book because of his sexual preference... That, you are correct... Moreover, his sexuality has not and will never take away the aims of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc.

I think from what I understand is Sensuret is hurt because the of few most important things in his life, one becoming a member of Alpha, then having your own brothers "dismiss you" in your face, in public and private because of another important thing in his life, being a gay Black man, just happened so blantantly and disrespectfully toward him... He knows this... No one has to reiterate that...

But for him to all out avoid his "on line community" of his own fraternity publically like he did in Chit Chat in front of the mainstream community (called the "white community") is nothing more than seen as an "Uncle Tom" in most of the BGLO's... That the insults will continue to be hurled at him by African Americans the more he complains about being a Black gay man...

I don't know why it is so hard to express one's sexuality and sexual preferences in the African American community? Well, actually, I have some ideas that go beyond the scope of this post... But, as highly educated and being on the fast track with jobs and careers, the majority African Americans do not have the luxury to rest on their laurels when it comes to defeating racism... We are engrained to fight it as children with hardly any weapons... We are just told to go... And stand face to face, with much faith that it might change but very little hope that it will...

Let me ask you this, how do you defeat a innate hatred to segregate a whole community on the basis of skin color for over 300 years within 40 years of Civil Rights?

And now you want us to add sexism and ethnocentrism and all this other stuff, in what has been actively levied upon a group a people in America, lucky enough to have some sembelances knowing themselves from the past and then moving forward?

[The Cushite]

I am sorry if I came off as trying to assess the intent of Bro. Sensuret I by suggessting he had an agenda, but I think that everyone has an agenda. Whether it be commercial, personal, religious, social or psychological, our interactions with one another are purposeful (this is what I meant by agendas). I also don't want to make it seem that having an agenda is all the time a bad thing. Bro. Sensuret is homosexual and a brother of Alpha phi Alpha. Admittedly, I think that Alpha Phi Alpha has a ways to go by enlarge before we fully embrace the homosexual brothers that are a part of the brotherhood. I just think that brothers should be more conscience of the perception of the brotherhood. Like I posted earlier, I don't think that Bro. Sensuret I was doing anything intentional in linking Alpha Phi Alpha with homosexuality, but the perception could be that a man that is openly gay and known to be an Alpha could imply (not necessarily does imply) that there are many more gay brothers than there actually are. This is the problem that I have with the "normalizing" tactic that I noted earlier with the gay rights movement. Let me state for the record that I think that there are both civil and moral issues that affect the gay rights movement. As citizens, they deserve the same rights as any law abiding citizen in the U.S. As moral agents, they have no more of a right to tell me that Homosexuality is not a sin as I have to tell them that it is (in other words, that issue is up for critical debate, which on some level will never be resolved, so at best, we would probably have to agree to disagree).

Seeing that this last point is crucial, one has to come to terms of how much do you respect the fraternity if you are not willing to acknowledge that being a homosexual in the fraternity is a very small minority and that this is the true reality of the frat? Again, this question goes to the heart of how much you care about the perception of the fraternity. Now, I don't think that the fraternity should be perceived as a "Gay" fraternity because of a few openly gay brothers, but I would hope that the gay brothers would respect the fraternity enough to publicly proclaim the reality of the fraternity, that there are very few homosexual brothers and that the fraternity as a whole has nothing about it that affirms homosexuality. As I stated before, nothing in the constitution or bylaws states that Alpha Phi Alpha affirms homosexuality, so there is no need to have the fraternity perceived as such. Now, should we affirm it, that is up for debate. Until we have that debate; brothers, gay or straight, should respect the fraternity enough to allow for the fraternity to be perceived in the truest "light" as possible. While doing so, if a gay brother wants to have a debate about the issue, then let's have that debate in house. Let's go point for point, counter point for counter point with the ideals and values of the jewels as the plumbline to measure the points and let the best argument win out. Then let's affirm the desires of the entire brotherhood, not the opinions of a few.

Blackwatch!!!!!!

[2Tuff2Quit]

Originally posted by ladygreek
Thank you for your thoughtful response. But I need to ask a question and I hope you do not take it offensively.

Ever since I first learned about BGLOs I have always heard A Phi A referred to as the "gay" fraternity. This would have been before Sensuret was even born, or E. Lynn HArris for that matter.

So my question is, how did that get started in the first place, and since it has been around for so long the perception already existed that Alpha accepted or affirmed homosexuality. Sensuret did not cause this perception to be.

I was just thinking the same thing. Before I even enrolled in college, I had always heard this stereotype about Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Inc. I personally don't know any openly gay Alphas, however the ones I know do have strong opinions about this issue. I was just wondering if any of the Alpha's on this forum knew when this stereotype got started, and if anyone knew it's origins.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by The Cushite
This is the problem that I have with the "normalizing" tactic that I noted earlier with the gay rights movement. Let me state for the record that I think that there are both civil and moral issues that affect the gay rights movement. As citizens, they deserve the same rights as any law abiding citizen in the U.S. As moral agents, they have no more of a right to tell me that Homosexuality is not a sin as I have to tell them that it is (in other words, that issue is up for critical debate, which on some level will never be resolved, so at best, we would probably have to agree to disagree).

Seeing that this last point is crucial, one has to come to terms of how much do you respect the fraternity if you are not willing to acknowledge that being a homosexual in the fraternity is a very small minority and that this is the true reality of the frat? Again, this question goes to the heart of how much you care about the perception of the fraternity. Now, I don't think that the fraternity should be perceived as a "Gay" fraternity because of a few openly gay brothers, but I would hope that the gay brothers would respect the fraternity enough to publicly proclaim the reality of the fraternity, that there are very few homosexual brothers and that the fraternity as a whole has nothing about it that affirms homosexuality. As I stated before, nothing in the constitution or bylaws states that Alpha Phi Alpha affirms homosexuality, so there is no need to have the fraternity perceived as such. Now, should we affirm it, that is up for debate. Until we have that debate; brothers, gay or straight, should respect the fraternity enough to allow for the fraternity to be perceived in the truest "light" as possible. While doing so, if a gay brother wants to have a debate about the issue, then let's have that debate in house.

Given that most of the men on my father's side are Alpha men, I am well aware of what Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. does in the community and his capacity is far reaching. What goes behind the scenes in closed door meetings are unknownst to me and neither to I want to know...

And I also think that you cannot serve two masters in this instance... Regardless what you THINK about homosexuality, reality states it is not up to you... It ultimately up to God to that decision...

I do not want to debate on the moral issues because that is not my forte and I do not want to... And I also think that as a human being, your Sensuret I brother, was expressing his true feelings about life and Alpha, where he got them smashed by his very fraternity brothers... In fact the fraternity brothers he looks up to... He thought he could be welcomed wherever he goes, without judgement of who he is... And he thinks he has gotten "jaded" by the "Jewels"... And what is wrong with this picture???

And really, who cares WHAT the preception of the fraternity is when they are really doing what they are suppose to be doing... I say the same thing about my Sorority... It is by our acts that we do that we will be judged...

All we can do is strive to do the best that we can do and make a difference wherever we can... And possibly leave this world a little better off than how we found it...