Caribbean-Black interaction

MsFoxyLoxy77 · #1 02-21-2005, 02:02 AM

DISCLAIMER: I have mixed emotions about even posting this thread and trust I am the last person who wants to start drama. However, this is an account of MY opinion and mine alone and is in no way meant to generalize any group and is a reflection in part of my experiences.

I am African-American (as much as anyone can consider themselves one thing these days or in any past days for that matter) and to my knowledge no ancestry in any island. I have through the years become annoyed with the comments I have received in reference to black culture from some of the Caribbean brothers and sisters I have come in contanct with. I am tired of being asked what I am(in reference from what Island I'm from)...and when I answer African-American people are shocked as if I'm rare or apart of some dying breed of people. I'm tired interacting with some Caribbean folks who imply and in some cases openly express how drastically different they are from black people. They are not mentioning these differences just as an example of cultural pride (because everyone should be proud of their culture) but rather as vantage points as to how they are so much better. Normally this would not be a problem because again you may be entitled to few your culture as better than others, its called ethnocentrism. However, I can't help but feel these same people who are so quick to call Afams "Americans" and "Yankees" (in a negative connotation) are benefiting from the Civil Rights Movement and the struggles of my Afam ancestors. What does my dilemma have to do with this post? Why is it that these same people (that I have encountered) are so eager to join BGLOs and benefit from the prestige associated with membership if they are even upset for a second that someone would confuse them as Black. Yes, I understand that organizations like Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. serve all and have chapters around the world but the organziation is rooted in African American history and anyone that joins should have a level of respect for African American people. My grandmothers and other forebears worked hard in organizations like the NAACP and joined BGLOs...I just dislike to see those who seem to care little about what was going on in Afam's lives when the glos were founded, and are quick to say their not American but whatever..., but have yet to start a Caribbean sorority if they are so far off from black association (Of course people will assume they are black if there skin is black after all for most people that is the basic race criteria for African Americans)...I could go on but I have vented enough.

P.S. Again these are just my opinions and I know I will probably be viewed in a less than favorable manner but I am open to hearing and incorporating a knew perspective from these responses.

AngelicWings21 · #2 02-21-2005, 03:29 AM

Ok...i so not good at stating points...so excuse me if this is off base ....**its late should be in bed**
but i just had to put my couple of cents in*

As for one thing… I was raised by Haitian parents…
And the mindset in my upbringing is pride honor and respect.
Not only to respect my Haitian heritage yet the whole African/Black history.
I understand your points; I take very much pride in my culture, both Haitian and American.

Now lets see if I actually understanding what your saying…
Could you explain to me what you mean by :
“some cases openly express how drastically different they are from black people”?
Drastically different how? Besides the obvious.

My dad, makes references all the time. About how so many Americans throw away so many opportunities while people in Haiti are struggling just for someone to take a quick glance at them. I know people from all over the Caribbean who compare the cultures of the Islands to American…and they are major differences. But its part of the upbringing trying to rise and be successful. I wouldn’t really think of it as actually saying they think they are better.

For instance I believe it is in Jamaica …cursing is forbidden you can either serve jail time of be fined.(if I am wrong someone please correct me)…. Here you can cuss up a storm… who is going to stop you? I hope you understand where I am going with this.
For most Islanders its about respect and honor. Most feel we (Americans) lack it.

“They are not mentioning these differences just as an example of cultural pride (because everyone should be proud of their culture) but rather as vantage points as to how they are so much better.”

Ok…a person can eat cheese pizza all there life and think its better because that what they are use to…all there life. Changing someones mindset isn't easy...heck probably impossible. But teaching one, helps the other understand what they can't comprehend.(I know poor example...its late..and I am so not good at this)

"Why is it that these same people (that I have encountered) are so eager to join BGLOs and benefit from the prestige associated with membership if they are even upset for a second that someone would confuse them as Black"

From a viewpoint of a sister friend I feel that BGLO’s extended their membership all around the world to stimulate and provide a sisterhood/brotherhood and unity. To further educate the many aspects of different cultures may be it Black, Hispanic etc. And why wouldn’t a person of Caribbean decent want to be associated with a BGLO? Maybe just for the same reasons you are. Should BGLO’s solely be existent to African Americans yet there are so many other people who share the same views and beliefs of the sisterhood and brotherhood? And I just noticed that you said…that “you have encountered” .

My grandmothers and other forebears worked hard in organizations like the NAACP and joined BGLOs...I just dislike to see those who seem to care little about what was going on in Afam's lives when the glos were founded, and are quick to say their not American but whatever.

So lets rewind… did slavery only affect Afam’s ? Were people of Caribbean decent an exception to Black History? If one suffers we ALL suffer and we ALL feel it. I see no dividing line here… besides the one given. I don’t see Haitian, Jamaican, Trinidadian, American and etc I see black people trying to prosper and make waves… not bring each other down.

Like I said I understand your viewpoints…and I can look at this in both views.
But I am standing behind all that I have stated...
and these are MY opinions....

ok...off to bed

allsmiles_22 · #3 02-21-2005, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MsFoxyLoxy77
DISCLAIMER: I have mixed emotions about even posting this thread and trust I am the last person who wants to start drama. However, this is an account of MY opinion and mine alone and is in no way meant to generalize any group and is a reflection in part of my experiences.

What does my dilemma have to do with this post? Why is it that these same people (that I have encountered) are so eager to join BGLOs and benefit from the prestige associated with membership if they are even upset for a second that someone would confuse them as Black.

Did you ask any of those people? If so, what did they say?

There are people who can tell you the opposite of what you are experiencing, but are you going to believe it if what you encounter is different?

Jody · #4 02-21-2005, 01:17 PM

Ms Foxy, have you considered some of it my be envy? This is the land of opportunity, some people may come here with a chip on their shoulder because they CHOSE TO COME HERE versus STAY at their island of origin

This is one of the weathist nations in the world (and some may argue one of the more morally corrupt...but that's a whole 'nuther thread) and unfettered (to some extent) by a lack of a caste system that enables some to amass great wealth from their own undertakings not an inheritance. How many other places in the world can that happen, especially for people of color? Taken from a global perspective, as much as we (black folks) may complain about things here, we in some respects MAY (I'm not going out on a limb and saying this is the best place to be because it probably isn't) have it kinda easy compared to the rest of the world for people of color.

I knew some people of color from South Africia...they were just amazed about the OPPORTUNITIES available..racism didn't bother them here because of what they had lived through over there.

AKA2D '91 · #5 02-21-2005, 01:20 PM

Hey MIA Soror Jody!

As ya'll say...That.Is. All!

SummerChild · #6 02-21-2005, 01:28 PM

Hi MsFoxyLoxy,
I think that this behavior (on the side of Caribbeans and Americans) is just an example of Willie Lynch behavior (see my post on the Delta Sigma Theta board to see a copy of the letter) and even though the letter may not be authentic, drawing upon differences to put other Black people down is where this letter is directed. Therefore, I would encourage you not to fall into that same pitfall by asking whether they had slavery, etc. also but just pointing them toward that letter if you genuinely believe that that is what is going on and challenging them to elevate their mind to a new level.

SC

Quote:

Originally posted by MsFoxyLoxy77
DISCLAIMER: I have mixed emotions about even posting this thread and trust I am the last person who wants to start drama. However, this is an account of MY opinion and mine alone and is in no way meant to generalize any group and is a reflection in part of my experiences.

I am African-American (as much as anyone can consider themselves one thing these days or in any past days for that matter) and to my knowledge no ancestry in any island. I have through the years become annoyed with the comments I have received in reference to black culture from some of the Caribbean brothers and sisters I have come in contanct with. I am tired of being asked what I am(in reference from what Island I'm from)...and when I answer African-American people are shocked as if I'm rare or apart of some dying breed of people. I'm tired interacting with some Caribbean folks who imply and in some cases openly express how drastically different they are from black people. They are not mentioning these differences just as an example of cultural pride (because everyone should be proud of their culture) but rather as vantage points as to how they are so much better. Normally this would not be a problem because again you may be entitled to few your culture as better than others, its called ethnocentrism. However, I can't help but feel these same people who are so quick to call Afams "Americans" and "Yankees" (in a negative connotation) are benefiting from the Civil Rights Movement and the struggles of my Afam ancestors. What does my dilemma have to do with this post? Why is it that these same people (that I have encountered) are so eager to join BGLOs and benefit from the prestige associated with membership if they are even upset for a second that someone would confuse them as Black. Yes, I understand that organizations like Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. serve all and have chapters around the world but the organziation is rooted in African American history and anyone that joins should have a level of respect for African American people. My grandmothers and other forebears worked hard in organizations like the NAACP and joined BGLOs...I just dislike to see those who seem to care little about what was going on in Afam's lives when the glos were founded, and are quick to say their not American but whatever..., but have yet to start a Caribbean sorority if they are so far off from black association (Of course people will assume they are black if there skin is black after all for most people that is the basic race criteria for African Americans)...I could go on but I have vented enough.

P.S. Again these are just my opinions and I know I will probably be viewed in a less than favorable manner but I am open to hearing and incorporating a knew perspective from these responses.

AKA2D '91 · #7 02-21-2005, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AKA2D '91
Hey MIA Soror Jody!

As ya'll say...That.Is. All!

clean out your PM!

Paradise359 · #8 02-21-2005, 08:29 PM

Ok,

I think I get what you're saying but you are speaking about the minority, not the majority. To me a Alpha Kappa Alpha woman born & raised in the Bahamas. Black is black is black, no matter your nationality. All of us had to & still deal with racism . Now please remember that the Caribbean consists of many islands & many different cultures & what one majority if a group may think may not be the same across that group. That is not all Jamaicans may think a certain way.

On the other hand there is a lot of ignorance in the States about anyone else in the world especially island nations where we're usually lumped as if we're one country & everybody has one accent which is usually Jamaican. So the people you come in contact with are most likely tired of folks coming at them with such ignorance or they're ignorant themselves.

There are those of us who can deal with it better and there are those who look down upon Black Americans. A lot of Americans don't understand this & think that everyone envies them but not everybody does. A lot of us pray for you all and wish that you had the same status in your own county that we have in ours. I.e Black people running the country. Some of us came ot the States not because our countries are poor & needy but b/c we wanted a change of scenery. The Bahamas for example is the richest nation per capita in the Caribbean so we're not struggling at all. Not everyone is so blessed.

And why should a person who is not African-American claim it? I wouldn't want somebody claiming my country, you have your own. But I think that black people who claim their nationality as their race are ignorant. I'm Bahamian but i know I'm black, just as my white Bahamian friend knows she's white. Caribbean is not the same as black but sadly not everyone knows this.

Basically it boils down to respect for all peoples and all cultures and all black people. In history we did Bahamian history, West-Indian history & US history. Ignorance is not attractive. People need to realize that they are not alone in this world. I as a Bahamian woman who went to the US for school have heard the most ignorant & down right disrespectful questions so there is a lot of work to be done all over. Instead of becoming frustrated I chose to educate. I know it's hard but some people for some reason in 2005 just don't know about anything.

So, therefore, in conclusion, finally (lol), I am apart of AKA because I my Founders as Black women who did what they had to do. I respect them & I respect what the struggle must have been like. The ideals of AKA are to serve ALL and I as a Bahamian woman of AKA am doing that. Now I can't profess to identify with what it means to be an African-American because I don't know. I can't get passionate about their struggle b/c it's not MY direct history. But I CAN empathize and sympathize and appreciate what your ancestors have done for you. It really is all about respect. I appreciate your opinion but try not to become defensive when they are expressing their views & see if they're making sense with some of their points. If not keep it moving because there are too many ignorant people in this world for you to worry about.

MsFoxyLoxy77 · #9 02-22-2005, 09:38 AM

Thank you all for the responses.

AKA_Monet · #10 02-22-2005, 04:55 PM

MsFoxyLoxy77--

You need to know your history...

Fact is many Island Nations actually fought and won their freedom from slavery 100-200 years before the slaves in the States got theirs in 1865...

In fact the war of 1812 is just about that issue alone...

What Toussaint L'Overture and I believe "Cinque" (a former slave--pardon my ignorance) did to the French Empire led by Napoleon in what is now called Haiti in 1795--whoa...

Many other island nations have had their own revolutions throughout history. Some of them battles... Some of them peacefully... I.e. I think the Bahamas and Jamaica suceeded from the British "fairly" peacefully...

Then Monserrat was blown away with it's volcano... Now no one can live there for another 100-200 years until the lava solidifies...

Then there is Belieze AND Ecuador...

And who do you THINK helped Nat Turner and the slave revolts in the South... And who fought the Spanish off in both Florida with Chief Crazy Horse? Who would have had active supplies lines???

When the large countries lost their footings in the Carribean due to piracy, where did all the "wealth" go?

Over time, many in the island became entreprenuers and extended opportunities to them from other nations, some European and "Soviet" to amass more industrialization... However, it is because of lame US policy (really against Fidel Castro), that impoverished some of these islands...

Did you know there are numerous Africans on Cuba? And they are segregated from those that we "Americans" think as Cuban...

When you speak to Trinadians have they started to share with you what parts of African cultural traditions were maintained over the years not lost due to enslavement...

Know your history... That is all I can say... There is plenty of it out their.

And I just watch how the Arubans kicked the FCC's azz with online Casino Gambling...

And the best monetary accounts to have in now in Caymans, liken to a Swiss Account, but better... No questions asked...

If I was West Indian, I dayum sho would have some land somewhere... But, I cain't stand those Hurricanes...

darling1 · #11 02-26-2005, 11:00 PM

back home in ny i used to deal with those issues. yankee vs west indian. you would be surprised at how little this issue means in a different country..shoot a different state.

my advice is to just let it be. be proud of who you are and dont sweat those who want to look down on you because you arent 'mixed' with something else. this is just one more thing to keep our communities divided. it is they who are ignorant, not appreciating the fact that although culturally there maybe some differences, we bleed the same and have ancestors who were killed or enslaved so that you and i can have this dialogue.

screw 'em and keep on truckin'.

Quote:

Originally posted by MsFoxyLoxy77
DISCLAIMER: I have mixed emotions about even posting this thread and trust I am the last person who wants to start drama. However, this is an account of MY opinion and mine alone and is in no way meant to generalize any group and is a reflection in part of my experiences.

I am African-American (as much as anyone can consider themselves one thing these days or in any past days for that matter) and to my knowledge no ancestry in any island. I have through the years become annoyed with the comments I have received in reference to black culture from some of the Caribbean brothers and sisters I have come in contanct with. I am tired of being asked what I am(in reference from what Island I'm from)...and when I answer African-American people are shocked as if I'm rare or apart of some dying breed of people. I'm tired interacting with some Caribbean folks who imply and in some cases openly express how drastically different they are from black people. They are not mentioning these differences just as an example of cultural pride (because everyone should be proud of their culture) but rather as vantage points as to how they are so much better. Normally this would not be a problem because again you may be entitled to few your culture as better than others, its called ethnocentrism. However, I can't help but feel these same people who are so quick to call Afams "Americans" and "Yankees" (in a negative connotation) are benefiting from the Civil Rights Movement and the struggles of my Afam ancestors. What does my dilemma have to do with this post? Why is it that these same people (that I have encountered) are so eager to join BGLOs and benefit from the prestige associated with membership if they are even upset for a second that someone would confuse them as Black. Yes, I understand that organizations like Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. serve all and have chapters around the world but the organziation is rooted in African American history and anyone that joins should have a level of respect for African American people. My grandmothers and other forebears worked hard in organizations like the NAACP and joined BGLOs...I just dislike to see those who seem to care little about what was going on in Afam's lives when the glos were founded, and are quick to say their not American but whatever..., but have yet to start a Caribbean sorority if they are so far off from black association (Of course people will assume they are black if there skin is black after all for most people that is the basic race criteria for African Americans)...I could go on but I have vented enough.

P.S. Again these are just my opinions and I know I will probably be viewed in a less than favorable manner but I am open to hearing and incorporating a knew perspective from these responses.

INS2U · #12 02-28-2005, 01:19 PM

I would have replied to this thread sooner, but, when I returned I saw that a number of sistergreeks and sisterfriends had adequately answered you.

From my perspective, as a Jamaican who attended school in the US, I can relate to all that has been said, but, I believe that a key factor contributing to a "Caribbean Mentality" (for want of a better term) towards AAs is something that AKA Monet pointed out as follows:

Quote:

Fact is many Island Nations actually fought and won their freedom from slavery 100-200 years before the slaves in the States got theirs in 1865...

For this reason Caribbean people are unable to directly relate, but, rather empathize with the struggle of AAs in the US. I don't think we will EVER be able to completely grasp the struggle in its entirety. As another person pointed out, we have been ruling our countries as black people for decades. To see a black person in a leadership position is no phenomenon to us, and, as such, is not as revered as it is in the US by AAs. It is an everyday, normal occurance, and has been so for more than half a century. This is perhaps why Caribbean folk do not take a liking to being lumped into a category as simply being black, because for us, our race is not as important as our nationality and being distinctly recognised as Jamaican, Cuban, Bahamian, Bajan, Trinidadian etc.

I also find it a little unfair to say or imply that Caribbean people come to the US and are reaping the benefits of the Black stuggle, yet none of them contributed. I have no names to give at this point as I am no civil rights or history buff, but, I have heard of SEVERAL Caribbean people who were key in the formation of the NAACP, Black Panther and a few other movements of 'rebellion' which aided the rise of Blacks out of oppression.

My perspective as a member of a BGLO...I personally feel that the message, mission and service of our organisations far transcends the boundaries of African Americans, and this is why chapters have seen the need to incoporate persons of different nationalities and races into the fold.

To the person who spoke about Caribbean people coming to the US for a change of scenery and not necessarily "a better life", I can DIRECTLY RELATE to this. Just as how an AA student may feel the need to leave her home in Los Angeles California to attend school in Florida is exactly the way we pick up ourselves and attend school in another location. And we go EVERYWHERE. Not just to the US. I have friends who attend school in Russia, UK, Germany, Cuba and in other Caribbean islands who are from Jamaica. So, it's not always because we are trying to get something from anybody, please don't get it twisted. We just wish to be away from home for a while.

It amazes me though, that the first thought that would come to the minds of some is that Caribbean people must be jealous of AAs and that's why they act that way. Oh boy! LOL...

Paradise359 · #13 02-28-2005, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by INS2U
I would have replied to this thread sooner, but, when I returned I saw that a number of sistergreeks and sisterfriends had adequately answered you.

From my perspective, as a Jamaican who attended school in the US, I can relate to all that has been said, but, I believe that a key factor contributing to a "Caribbean Mentality" (for want of a better term) towards AAs is something that AKA Monet pointed out as follows:

For this reason Caribbean people are unable to directly relate, but, rather empathize with the struggle of AAs in the US. I don't think we will EVER be able to completely grasp the struggle in its entirety. As another person pointed out, we have been ruling our countries as black people for decades. To see a black person in a leadership position is no phenomenon to us, and, as such, is not as revered as it is in the US by AAs. It is an everyday, normal occurance, and has been so for more than half a century. This is perhaps why Caribbean folk do not take a liking to being lumped into a category as simply being black, because for us, our race is not as important as our nationality and being distinctly recognised as Jamaican, Cuban, Bahamian, Bajan, Trinidadian etc.

I also find it a little unfair to say or imply that Caribbean people come to the US and are reaping the benefits of the Black stuggle, yet none of them contributed. I have no names to give at this point as I am no civil rights or history buff, but, I have heard of SEVERAL Caribbean people who were key in the formation of the NAACP, Black Panther and a few other movements of 'rebellion' which aided the rise of Blacks out of oppression.

My perspective as a member of a BGLO...I personally feel that the message, mission and service of our organisations far transcends the boundaries of African Americans, and this is why chapters have seen the need to incoporate persons of different nationalities and races into the fold.

To the person who spoke about Caribbean people coming to the US for a change of scenery and not necessarily "a better life", I can DIRECTLY RELATE to this. Just as how an AA student may feel the need to leave her home in Los Angeles California to attend school in Florida is exactly the way we pick up ourselves and attend school in another location. And we go EVERYWHERE. Not just to the US. I have friends who attend school in Russia, UK, Germany, Cuba and in other Caribbean islands who are from Jamaica. So, it's not always because we are trying to get something from anybody, please don't get it twisted. We just wish to be away from home for a while.

It amazes me though, that the first thought that would come to the minds of some is that Caribbean people must be jealous of AAs and that's why they act that way. Oh boy! LOL...

AMEN!

AKA_Monet · #14 03-01-2005, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by INS2U
I also find it a little unfair to say or imply that Caribbean people come to the US and are reaping the benefits of the Black stuggle, yet none of them contributed. I have no names to give at this point as I am no civil rights or history buff, but, I have heard of SEVERAL Caribbean people who were key in the formation of the NAACP, Black Panther and a few other movements of 'rebellion' which aided the rise of Blacks out of oppression.

It amazes me though, that the first thought that would come to the minds of some is that Caribbean people must be jealous of AAs and that's why they act that way. Oh boy! LOL...

I am forgetful sometimes--my sometimer's is kickin' in--but wasn't Marcus Garvey in the early 20th century from Jamaica? Or at least he was from a Caribbean country?

And Halle Selessie the King of Ethiopian visited Jamaica back in the day--I think to partly build a Royal Air Force and taught many in that area to fly planes... However, the British had some issues about that and ended it quickly before World War I...

Besides, many of these Island Nations are also a part of the OMA that governs how trade occurs between nations... The US has some power in it, but it was because of Reagan that they pulled out of it during the UNICEF pull out... I forgot the what the acronym of OMA stands for--but much of it regards natural commodities, especially oil... And that's why many Island Nations as well as Central and South American nations have issues with the US... Not because they don't like African Americans... But because we are really not getting the big picture here...

Please do not take offense, but I have encountered what I have "personalized" as anger from both Caribbean and Africans who have immigrated to the US. But as I have gotten older, I understand their world view better and better. And the more I find out, I realize that we in the US, especially African Americans who have ancestors for over 10 generations, have the "wool" completely pulled over our heads... But there IS a reason for that... Because if you do some research into your history: there was one of the most VILE and RACIST acts that MEANT for African Americans, Caribbeans and Africans to NOT "hook up" through trade, government, and any exchange of ideas... It took a generation or two... But that is part of the reason why SOME folks who fought for liberation in the 60's and 70's were assasinated or expelled from the US...

Think Kwame Ture
Think WEB DuBois
Think Malcolm X
Think MLK
Think Assata Shakur
Just start adding 2 and 2--and you can see a conspiracy unfold...

It's enough to just make you wonder...

darling1 · #15 03-01-2005, 10:31 PM

Yes, I believe Garvey was Caribbean.

As usual you are giving an all important lesson on our history. The wool has been pulled over our eyes and too many of us are very comfortable in that mindset.

INSU, very well stated comment!!

Quote:

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
I am forgetful sometimes--my sometimer's is kickin' in--but wasn't Marcus Garvey in the early 20th century from Jamaica? Or at least he was from a Caribbean country?

And Halle Selessie the King of Ethiopian visited Jamaica back in the day--I think to partly build a Royal Air Force and taught many in that area to fly planes... However, the British had some issues about that and ended it quickly before World War I...

Besides, many of these Island Nations are also a part of the OMA that governs how trade occurs between nations... The US has some power in it, but it was because of Reagan that they pulled out of it during the UNICEF pull out... I forgot the what the acronym of OMA stands for--but much of it regards natural commodities, especially oil... And that's why many Island Nations as well as Central and South American nations have issues with the US... Not because they don't like African Americans... But because we are really not getting the big picture here...

Please do not take offense, but I have encountered what I have "personalized" as anger from both Caribbean and Africans who have immigrated to the US. But as I have gotten older, I understand their world view better and better. And the more I find out, I realize that we in the US, especially African Americans who have ancestors for over 10 generations, have the "wool" completely pulled over our heads... But there IS a reason for that... Because if you do some research into your history: there was one of the most VILE and RACIST acts that MEANT for African Americans, Caribbeans and Africans to NOT "hook up" through trade, government, and any exchange of ideas... It took a generation or two... But that is part of the reason why SOME folks who fought for liberation in the 60's and 70's were assasinated or expelled from the US...

Think Kwame Ture
Think WEB DuBois
Think Malcolm X
Think MLK
Think Assata Shakur
Just start adding 2 and 2--and you can see a conspiracy unfold...

It's enough to just make you wonder...