I'm surprised it took this long....

[LXAAlum]

...to equate the Baghdad prison abuse issue with hazing, but, here it is (emphasis mine):

Hazing At Baghdad U

By William A. Mayer, Editor & Publisher PipeLineNews.org - May 10, 2004

At the center of the Iraqi prisoner controversy, stand six individuals accused of abusing approximately 20 detainees at Saddam’s infamous Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

These six have already been reprimanded by the US military, another six are currently under investigation for having possibly participated in the incidents, all of which seem to have occurred in November and December of 2003.

Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, was the head of the 800th Military Police Brigade and in charge of the entire Iraqi prison system which includes the Abu Ghraib jail. She was also in command of the 3,400 National Guard troops assigned to the city of Mosul.

Karpinski [whose husband continues to serve in Oman] denies any knowledge of the events, claiming to have been “shocked" when the information became public.

Regardless, she has been reprimanded and relieved of command, a career destroyed.

So what exactly is the grave activity that those involved in this behavior are accused of?

Humiliation basically, that and placing subjects in circumstances where they believed that peril could ensue.

No actual physical torture is being alleged.

No skin broken, no bones shattered, no cattle prods, no meat hooks.

What we find of particular interest is the contrast between the worst that has occurred in Abu Ghraib under the coalition and the worst that occurred under Saddam and to a lesser extent which continues to occur in nearly every Muslim penal institution in the Middle East - every day of the week.

Under Saddam, such horrific acts of cruelty were inflicted upon hundreds of thousands - as official state policy - that it’s really beyond comprehension.

It is also without modern historical precedent.

Whereas the Nazis murdered millions, they refrained from the pure demonic brutality that Saddam bathed in for all of his adult life. The Third Reich was an ice-cold killing machine, designed to systematically eliminate certain ethnic and religious minorities in the most efficient manner. It was simply beyond the scope of Hitler's vision or desire to see his victims piteously reduced to quivering dead meat.

Saddam reveled in it.

So again we must ask ourselves, what exactly is the coalition guilty of, if the worst comes to pass?

If you strip the charges of their political radioactivity, you could jocularly characterize the incidents as a rough form of hazing - call it Sigma Abu Ghraib.

Every year probably fifty-thousand American kids must run a similar gauntlet, mostly in activities set in and around institutions of advanced learning – frat houses and intramural sports teams primarily. There is no reason here to go into to oft-times perverted and sadistic sexual nature of the most extreme of these college rituals, ample evidence exists and has been extensively catalogued.

Are there differences between what we may disapprove of in theory but tolerate in practice on American campuses and what apparently has taken place in Iraq?

Absolutely.

Students are not captives of an almost omnipotent foreign power, they are not in confinement and dependent upon their keepers for the necessities of life and only the most severe of cases seem to rival what we have seen in the media’s feeding frenzy so far, but the fact remains that the parallels are there.

But that is not really the entire point.

What has been lost here is perspective, there is precious little in evidence.

First let us remember that in his salt-the-earth depravity, Saddam opened the prisons, in anticipation of the coalition attack. Those released were mostly common criminals – rapists, murderers and thieves. It is from this socially deviant demographic that a substantial number of Abu Ghraib’s past and current prison population are drawn. Along with them are a significant contingent of dead-enders, unreconstructed Baathists, assorted crazies and those newly conscripted into the hate America club.

These are the people who inhabit the Iraqi prison system, most minor offenders are released in short order, there simply isn’t room to hold everyone who commits a lesser offense.

And it is among these specimens of social pathology that our troops live and work. In a very real sense the jailers in this type of arrangement become the jailed themselves.

This is neither being offered as an excuse, nor even as an extenuating circumstance. It's merely explanatory, as is the fact that the safety of the coalition forces demands that a high priority be placed upon information gleaned from interrogations and one of the duties of those in charge of the incarceration mechanism is to set the tone to make those interrogations effective.

Please keep in mind also, something that though repeated often, needs to be hammered home relentlessly.

We are engaged in a war for survival, whose outcome is still unclear. We have reluctantly taken up arms against a philosophy as dangerous as any that we as a people have faced in our near 400-plus years of common shared experience.

Watch the evening news, observe extremist elements reveling in successful sapping operations in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or India or the former peaceful land of the House of Saud.

Look at the hate on the faces of indoctrinated monster-children created in fundamentalist Islamic Madrassas and Mosques, as they hoist their AKs high while dragging their burning victims through the streets.

Now picture that coming to your neighborhood…because if intent alone were driving the train, they would be outside your door as you read this, some of the forward-placed expeditionary troops reside among us already.

It is this clarity of vision which has been absent from the so far, one sided, prisoner debate.

It has been removed from this controversy, like color is drained from the sky as night approaches.

If we allow such diversions to fixate us, all will eventually unravel and it will be an exceedingly hard night that is upon us indeed.

[moe.ron]

Yeah, ok. So, if this is a fraternity hazing, we can expect the following:

1) The soldiers will be expelled from the military
2) The battalion will loose their charter and be evicted from the prison
3) The victims then sue the national office, in this case, the United States of America.

I'm sure the write will agree that the lawsuit is acceptable since this is a fraternity hazing.

[Tex1899]

Regarding this situation, I wouldn't be surprised if lawsuits are filed in the coming months...somewhere.

[PsychTau]

First of all, someone made the remark to me about: where did those military men/women learn how to do things like that to the prisoners? Easy....the "hazing mentality" that goes on in boot camp and in our military academies. Maybe now the powers that be will see the full effect of "just a little harmless hazing to teach them a lesson"....especially when they start getting reprimanded.

Not saying that is the only explanation, or the right explanation, but you have to wonder what kind of effect it had on these military men/women.

Secondly, I probably won't be very surprised (but very disgusted) if I see an American lawyer file an American lawsuit (probably class action) "on behalf" of those tortured (without the victims "requesting" it). In my opinion, if they want retribution, let them figure out how to get it. (I'm comparing this to the "ambulance chaser" lawyers who encourage people to file a lawsuit "cause they deserve $$$$ for what they went through". When I had my car accident, yep it sucked and I deserved a car to replace my totalled one, but I don't think I deserved a million dollars.....it was just an accident. If I want more $$, I'll let ya know!)

/soapbox

PsychTau

[_Opi_]

Are you kidding?

This article must be a joke. So guards abusing prisoners are the same as fraternity hazing? I think not. One, because the prisoners are not voluntarily participating in it, nor can they make it stop. Two, because America is fighting this war because they are "morally" superior to Iraq, but stoop straight down to saddam's level. Three, because these soldiers are representing the United States of America and their actions should be held up to the highest professional standards.

I dont think this could be easily dismissed as hazing, as the article puts it, and I find it rather offensive that they sneaked the word "mosque" ( also known as a place of worship) as breeding "monsters". Go to your local mosque and please let us know how many monsters you see. I am truly sick of this propaganda.

Psychtau,

I find your response interesting. Why would it be disgusting for an American to stand up for these people? Wouldn't it be a patriotic thing to do as the actions of these soldiers are both morally and constitutionally unlawful? Wouldn't it let the rest of the world know that such actions are unacceptable for Americans, especially those who serve the Nation?


Just curious, is all!

[PsychTau]

Originally posted by _Opi_
Psychtau,

I find your response interesting. Why would it be disgusting for an American to stand up for these people? Wouldn't it be a patriotic thing to do as the actions of these soldiers are both morally and constitutionally unlawful? Wouldn't it let the rest of the world know that such actions are unacceptable for Americans, especially those who serve the Nation?


Just curious, is all!

It depends on the motive behind an American lawyer filing a lawsuit for millions on their behalf. If it was for that lawyer to make a name or money for him/herself, then that's just uncalled for. And I don't think that money is the answer for everything...maybe there is some other retribution (or whatever the word is) that we can offer them. Maybe these people don't really want money. We just need to think creatively on that.

Sorry if my earlier post was a little snippy....some lawyers around here (Arkansas, not GC!!!) were getting on my nerves. Man, sometimes you just gotta do the right thing.....ya know??? Anyway, my point was more that American lawyers should be willing to help these people if they want the help and not just come up with something that we (Americans) think they want. Discussion is key.

PsychTau

[_Opi_]

Psychtau,

Understood.

However, what makes you think they don't want the money? Do you not think they deserve the compensation for such atrocities, whether it comes in the form of money or whatever. They should get whatever an American would get, dont you think?

[33girl]

Please reread, particularly the part underlined...

Originally posted by PsychTau
Secondly, I probably won't be very surprised (but very disgusted) if I see an American lawyer file an American lawsuit (probably class action) "on behalf" of those tortured (without the victims "requesting" it). In my opinion, if they want retribution, let them figure out how to get it. (I'm comparing this to the "ambulance chaser" lawyers who encourage people to file a lawsuit "cause they deserve $$$$ for what they went through". When I had my car accident, yep it sucked and I deserved a car to replace my totalled one, but I don't think I deserved a million dollars.....it was just an accident. If I want more $$, I'll let ya know!)

/soapbox

PsychTau

It has nothing to do with whether or not they deserve compensation. She's more upset at the prospect of a lawyer filing a suit on behalf of someone who may not want it....kinda like the anti-death penalty advocates who file for someone on death row who has decided he doesn't want any more appeals and just wants to get it over with.

She never said they DIDN'T want money or compensation, only that if they do they need to pursue it themselves.

[PsychTau]

33girl hit the nail on the head. I'm not saying that they don't deserve compensation....I'm saying that my definition of compensation and your definition of compensation and their definition of compensation may be totally different. And the anti-death penalty advocates filing "on behalf" of a death row inmate who doesn't want a stay of execution is a perfect example. Thanks, 33girl!

PsychTau

[_Opi_]

Rudey,

Get a life. Really! You dont play the devil's advocate too well.

And 33girl, I'm sure these people want justice. I didnt know that you can sue for someone that doesnt want you to represent them. But if someone was injusticed, Im pretty sure they would want some type of justice served..obviously WITH the consent of the victims.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by _Opi_
Rudey,

Get a life. Really! You dont play the devil's advocate too well.

And 33girl, I'm sure these people want justice. I didnt know that you can sue for someone that doesnt want you to represent them. But if someone was injusticed, Im pretty sure they would want some type of justice served..obviously WITH the consent of the victims.

Play the devil's advocate? What are you talking about? Do you even know what that phrase means? You can't talk to a male in that way for you will be stoned.

-Rudey

[DeltAlum]

Careful...

[33girl]

I'm pretty sure they want justice too. But it's up to THEM to seek it, and seek the KIND of justice they want (hell, for all I know, they will say they want a tour of the Hershey factory with unlimited free samples). Americans tend to assume that money cures all humiliations/pain/wrongdoing, and it isn't that way everywhere.

Not only that, it depends how their countrymen would look on them if they took a $$ settlement - rather than demanding that America in general apologize.

[Tom Earp]

Hm,

while this may seem to be hazing, it was interrogation that went awry by some people ordered to do so or for thier own pleasure?

Wanting to sue for the harm done to them? Streatch it out a little more.

But, living under a dick-tater who would kill people for no reason than they did not agree with him, to that same people who are killing their own for a cause?

Killing people from all nations whom are there to try and rebuild the country to but money back into the land?

Why, it is not relegion, it is power, economics and nothing else.

Hazing, sorry LXAAlum, I have to disagree with you on this one.

This is war, not a Greek Ritual.

[PsychTau]

Originally posted by 33girl
Not only that, it depends how their countrymen would look on them if they took a $$ settlement - rather than demanding that America in general apologize.

33girl is reading my mind. Seriously, that's what I was thinking but couldn't verbalize as well as she. I'm not saying they don't deserve justice, but our ideas and their ideas aren't the same. And I think that with the damaged relationships American's have with those prisoners right now, if an American lawyer came in and said "You deserve a million dollars from the military and here's how we're gonna get it...." the prisoner's may be afraid to tell that American "no, I don't want millions" and may be afraid to verbalize what they really want.

PsychTau