Harder for older students to join?

[ealymc]

I have heard lots of questions here regarding age of the PNMs and it being held against someone for being a sophomore while rushing. This concept is unheard for me and I don't exactly understand the reasoning or logic behind it.

One of the things that we kind encourage our guys to do regarding rush is to broaden our focus on the guys that we consider. Not just freshmen, but there are a tons of guys with unlimited potential that are older (be it sophomore, junior or whatever), already settled into college and know what's going on, able to juggle both school and fraternity, and may already be a proven campus leader in some cases. Those, personally, were my favorite ones to rush, I guess partially because you want to know that the fraternity is in good hands when you leave.

So, I guess my question is - why would someone be at a disadvantage at your campus because they aren't a freshman?

[KSUViolet06]

One of the main advantages I've heard for pledging a freshman over an upperclassman is theoretically, the chapter gets 4 years of dues and participation as opposed to 2 or 3. That of course is assuming that the PNM stays active all 4 years of college.

[AlphaFrog]

When you're talking SEC, many of the chapters go in to rush above total, and so getting quota is their only opportunity to increase their numbers. If they take a sophomore, that person is going to be gone in 3 years instead of 4, and due to being over total, they wouldn't be able to replace that person.

Let's see if I can put together a simple example.

Total = 10
Quota = 5
XYZ is at 15
That means, going into recruitment, they can take 5 more, putting them at 20.

Next year, total is still 10, quota is still 5, they're at 15 due to graduating 5 srs. They take 5 and are now at 20 again.

This pattern repeats, only that first year, they took a sophomore, who graduated in 3 years. That means that they had 6 graduate, and quota is only 5. They're still above total, so 5 is all they can take, so they end up with only 19 this year.

Now, multiply the above scenario by 20 and you've got the situation at many SEC schools.


ETA: Theoretically, if you have enough groups over total (and therefore not willing to take sophs for the purpose of staying over total), you should be looking into raising total...but I get the distinct impression that it would be easier to get an edict from God than change total at some of these schools.

[ealymc]

Quotas are something else foreign to fraternity life at my school. Every semester I was at UCA, there was at least one sorority didn't take either a fall or spring pledge class because of quota, but the fraternities are just out there gettin' the guys... as many as you can every semester, it seems. I guess that's why it didn't make sense to me. What is the purpose of quota anyway? To keep the playing field as even as possible, I suppose?

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by ealymc

What is the purpose of quota anyway? To keep the playing field as even as possible, I suppose?

Yep. Quota = number of girls rushing/number of chapters. So, technically, if there are 100 rushees, and 10 chapters, each chapter should get 10. But, due to PNM preference, etc, it generally doesn't happen that way.

[ToriForte]

When I was at TU, that didn't seem to be a problem at all. We even had Juniors for new members.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by ToriForte

When I was at TU, that didn't seem to be a problem at all. We even had Juniors for new members.

No, I would say upperclassmen receiving a bid isn't a huge problem at a good 60-70% of schools. But, the ones that ARE hard to get a bid for an upperclassmen comprise a HUGE amount of many NPCs. I would venture to guess there are a few sororities whose SEC numbers alone top that of some of the smaller NPCs total national numbers.

[Tom Earp]

It will of course depend on the size of school, the % of Greeks on campus and has nothing to do with the SEC other than they are all Old South Schools where Greek life is very strong from the good old days where legacies are a prime consideration especially in Sororities. They have enough people who want to join and have families from the GLOs. There fore, the limitations are just that.

If some of the other non snob schools look at the individual, they look at the person, not really the age unless they are seniors.

OP is correct, the idea is to get and keep a member as long as possible to grow through the ranks and help the chapters out over a period of time.

[ealymc]

Side note: I don't believe, just from personal experience, that those with most years of activity are the biggest contributors. Kind of like how experience is great but =/= leadership.

[LatinaAlumna]

Originally Posted by ealymc

I have heard lots of questions here regarding age of the PNMs and it being held against someone for being a sophomore while rushing. This concept is unheard for me and I don't exactly understand the reasoning or logic behind it.

It's a foreign concept for most LGLOs as well. Some organizations won't even allow a freshman to pursue membership at all; most make them wait until they have completed at least one full term. I don't have hard statistics on this, but from my own observations many people do not join LGLOs until late in the sophomore year or during the junior year.

However, from reading about quotas, etc. on GC, I can see why it is an issue for some of the NPC sororities.

[EE-BO]

Originally Posted by ealymc

So, I guess my question is - why would someone be at a disadvantage at your campus because they aren't a freshman?

This is a chapter issue more than a school issue. Further, it is an issue that can evolve and change over time with supply and demand.

Speaking specifically to NIC fraternities, such as your own- Sigma Nu, at any campus you care to name- even the SEC schools with highly competitive rush environments- there are always fraternities where sophomores and juniors will have no trouble rushing and getting a bid assuming they are otherwise deemed suitable candidates.

And at most schools, some more than others, there are fraternities where being beyond your freshman year is a major obstacle.

To use Texas as an example, I can think of 3 fraternities here where that has probably always been the case- all chapters which have at all times been strong in size and the most socially prominent organizations.

And at any given time there might be 5 or 6 where getting a bid as a sophomore or junior will be difficult- usually the 5 or 6 largest and most socially regarded chapters at the time.

It is a simple case of supply and demand. Coming into rush, any top fraternity at any campus will have way more eager rushees than they will have spots in the final pledge class. First priority will naturally go to legacies, guys who were known to the fraternity before they started college and freshman who come into rush who are ideal candidates and who have clearly planned to go Greek well before reaching college.

From that pool of candidates, there will still be many cuts- and so it can really hard for there to be space for someone who waited until sophomore year because they were not ready or not even really aware of Greek Life when they went to college.

It does not mean it is a hopeless cause. If a guy comes to college with no plans to go Greek and meets up with people as a freshman and turns out to be a solid candidate- he will have a fair shot at spring rush or perhaps even fall rush as a sophomore.

But someone coming blindly into rush with no prior connections as a sophomore is going to have a hard time purely because they waited.

This may disregard a particular individual who would make a great candidate, but it is a matter of practical convenience. Chapters have limited pledge class sizes, limited rush budgets and a limited amount of time in which to seek out the best potential candidates for membership.

And so sometimes arbitrary points like this become an issue- points which may not be good for an individual, but which do serve a general and legitimate practical purpose.

It is no different in professional life. In the world of accounting a great many senior staff and middle management accounting jobs are advertised ONLY for candidates with Big 4 Experience (Ernst & Young, Deloitte, KPMG and PriceWaterhouseCoopers.)

Making that arbitrary requirement does not guarantee all the candidates will be better than average, nor does it prevent you from missing a great candidate who did not choose to start their career in public accounting.

But with that arbitrary requirement you do generally get yourself a much more qualified and professional pool of candidates from which to choose. And if the supply is such that an ideal future employee is going to be contained within that pool of candidates- why take the time and expense to look at everyone? There is no benefit in that.

Then again, many companies consider all candidates since for whatever reason going only with Big 4 people is not a good idea. Maybe they do not have the prominent position that would attract such candidates, or maybe they do want to take the time to see everyone. Either way, their call whether to do that or not.

Anyhow, hope that helps.

[BamaMama]

I may be mistaken, but from reading the Alabama sorority recruitment thread, it appears there is an upperclassmen quota separate from the freshman quota. This may be unique to Bama, though.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by BamaMama

I may be mistaken, but from reading the Alabama sorority recruitment thread, it appears there is an upperclassmen quota separate from the freshman quota. This may be unique to Bama, though.

It's not completely unique, but it's not something that every school does, or even has the need to do.

[JensLindgren]

I'm a junior, looking to join a fraternity or start a chapter of one, a lot of thought is going into both options right now.

Of the fraternities at my school which I have checked out, they've all told me the same thing, that it's "never too late" to join, but I think they mean "as long as your still a undergrad", and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't give say, a 45 year old a bid. But joining one in one's third or even fourth year isn't unheard of, I know a few people who've done just that.

Jen

[Benzgirl]

Originally Posted by JensLindgren

I'm a junior, looking to join a fraternity or start a chapter of one, a lot of thought is going into both options right now.

Of the fraternities at my school which I have checked out, they've all told me the same thing, that it's "never too late" to join, but I think they mean "as long as your still a undergrad", and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't give say, a 45 year old a bid. But joining one in one's third or even fourth year isn't unheard of, I know a few people who've done just that.

Jen

IMHO....I think Fraternities look at things a little differently than Sororities.

When I rushed (that shows my age there), I believe every house admitted Sophomores, but it was limited in some houses. Some sororities admitted Juniors, but not that many Juniors went through recruitment. I am not aware than anyone banned Seniors, but I can't remember any rushing or receiving a bid.

Frats.....I knew Seniors that pledged.

Bottom line....It's all up to the chapter.