Footage shows terrorists using UN-marked vehicle

[Rudey]

Footage shows terrorists using UN-marked vehicle


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Associated Press, Oct. 1, 2004

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The Israel Defense Forces released video footage Friday taken by an unmanned aircraft showing what appeared to be Palestinians in the Gaza Strip loading rockets into a vehicle marked "U.N."

The black-and-white footage, taken by a drone - or unmanned aircraft - flying over the Gaza Strip, showed the militants driving off in the white van, with "U.N." marked in black on its roof.

The IDF is furious at the United Nations representatives in the Gaza Strip, "who continuously stress that they are an international organization and of course is not in any way involved in terrorism," Channel 1 TV quoted IDF officials as saying.

Israel has often accused terrorists of using United Nations vehicles and headquarters to launch attacks. U.N. officials were not immediately available for comment.

Israel has also accused officials of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, responsible for caring for thousands of refugees in the Gaza Strip, of turning a blind eye to terrorist activities in their vicinity, and of clear bias against Israel.

Israel uses drones to monitor activities in the crowded Gaza refugee camps. The footage provides soldiers and pilots real-time pictures of what is happening on the ground.

Friday's footage was released while the army launched a widescale operation in the Jebaliya refugee camp and nearby towns in an attempt to halt Palestinian rocket attacks on towns in Israel. Those rocket attacks killed two Israeli preschoolers Wednesday.

Thirty-five Palestinians have been killed in the army operation.

Further footage showed other Palestinians loading a rocket into the back of an unmarked van. The terrorists drove off in the vehicle, and then an Israeli missile fired from a helicopter hit the van and blew it up. The incident occurred early Friday, according to the army.

-Rudey

[hoosier]

There is a lot to admire about the military efforts of Israel.

[RACooper]

Hmm... I'm sorry but this looks like some faulty intelligence on the IDF part if this is an official new release.

Hear me out... there are three variants of the Kassam (or Qassam) Missile - all stats taken from IDF website

Kassam 1
79 cm long - 60mm caliber - 5.5 kg - 0.5 kg warhead - 3 km range
Kassam 2
180 cm long - 150mm caliber - 32 kg - 5-7 kg warhead - 8 km range
Kassam 3
200+ cm long - 170mm caliber - 90 kg - 10-20 kg warhead - 10 km range

Now in the footage of the "suspected" militant loading the object into the back of the UN vehicle, the object appears to be well over 79cm (3ft) long - which would mean that it would have to be a Kassam 2 or 3... which do appear to be the right length. Now the problem is, as the UN has also pointed out, is that then the weight would preclude a man from casually carrying it in one hand as either a Kassam 2 or 3 would weigh 70lbs or 200lbs.

Now the UN claims that it appears to them that the man was loading a folded up stretcher into the back of the vehicle, and I have to say from looking at the footage, they appear to be right... heck you can even see the leg at the back.

This leads me to ask why the IDF would release this footage in a seeming attempt to discredit the UN...

[Rudey]

It's nice to know you're jumping on a bandwagon and using someone else's words and eivdence. In any case, Israel will be presenting its evidence to the UN soon. The UN in the past has played quite a nasty little role in the affairs of Israel.

-Rudey

Originally posted by RACooper
Hmm... I'm sorry but this looks like some faulty intelligence on the IDF part if this is an official new release.

Hear me out... there are three variants of the Kassam (or Qassam) Missile - all stats taken from IDF website

Kassam 1
79 cm long - 60mm caliber - 5.5 kg - 0.5 kg warhead - 3 km range
Kassam 2
180 cm long - 150mm caliber - 32 kg - 5-7 kg warhead - 8 km range
Kassam 3
200+ cm long - 170mm caliber - 90 kg - 10-20 kg warhead - 10 km range

Now in the footage of the "suspected" militant loading the object into the back of the UN vehicle, the object appears to be well over 79cm (3ft) long - which would mean that it would have to be a Kassam 2 or 3... which do appear to be the right length. Now the problem is, as the UN has also pointed out, is that then the weight would preclude a man from casually carrying it in one hand as either a Kassam 2 or 3 would weigh 70lbs or 200lbs.

Now the UN claims that it appears to them that the man was loading a folded up stretcher into the back of the vehicle, and I have to say from looking at the footage, they appear to be right... heck you can even see the leg at the back.

This leads me to ask why the IDF would release this footage in a seeming attempt to discredit the UN...

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
It's nice to know you're jumping on a bandwagon and using someone else's words and eivdence. In any case, Israel will be presenting its evidence to the UN soon. The UN in the past has played quite a nasty little role in the affairs of Israel.

-Rudey

Oh I'm sorry... I presented an opinion that hey I came to myself as well. But from watching the specific video... on many sites including the IDF website I find it hard to believe that they could have concluded that this was indeed a Kassam rocket being loaded into the UN vehicle... physically it just doesn't work - the known base characteristics for the weapons don't gel with the motion of the individual nor nor do they conform to the object that he loads into the back of the vehicle.

Now playing devils advocate it is also concievable that a Kassam 1 could be concealed within a folded up stretcher... but the militants switched from using it nearly 3 years ago with the developement of the Kassam 2 and 3... because quite frankly it range and payload make it a very ineffective indirect fire weapon. So yes the remote possiblity exists that there could have been a concealed Kassam 1 involved.. again you wouldn't be able to see it in any video footage as the stretcher would totally conceal the object; so why would the IDF claim that the footage showed a Kassam missile being loaded into the UN vehicle? The images and the story just don't add up right now.

[AnchorAlum]

Is your not so subtle assertion that Israel is doctoring the video? Or perhaps the US?

Has to be the US. Anything done by Mossad would not have a mistake.

[kappaloo]

So posting evidence and fact is "jumping on the bandwagon" but if anyone posts opinion than that's just discountable because it isn't evidence or facts...

I have big issues with this. UNRWA admitted that they have employees in Hamas, which they consider okay as long as they aren't miltants. However, many countries have declared Hamas a terrorist organization which creates a whole 'nother debate about funding UNRWA.

It's not out of line to think the footage could be of miltants and weapons. It's not the first time terrorists have hid behind the guise of just being part of the "political" portion of a miltant party.

[RACooper]

No I'm not suggesting that the video was doctored... because if it was then they would have doctored it to reinforce their allegations, not weaken them.

However on another note Canada is investigating statments made by the UN rep there... something about Hamas having members in the employ of the UN as aid workers. While there is a arguement that Hamas has a "humanitarian" segment, it does not forgive (nor remove them from the terror organization list) them... and since Canada underwrites 4% or 5% of the UN operating cost in Palestine, aid would have to be curtailed until such time as no Hamas members were in the employ of the UN in the region.

[Rudey]

Actually you are taking the claim of Peter Hansen and calling it your own.

And again, Israel is presenting its evidence and asking for Hansen's dismissal.

Here is another quote from the man that he made to YOUR news service:

Last Update: 04/10/2004 13:04

UNRWA chief Peter Hansen 'sure' Hamas members on payroll

By Haaretz Service



The Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) Peter Hansen on Monday told the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that he was sure members of the militant Hamas organization were on the payroll in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but that he did not "see that as a crime."

UNRWA distributes aid to the Palestinians in the territories and has frequently been accused by Israel of turning a blind eye to terrorist activity.

"Oh I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as a crime," the CBC web site quoted Hansen as saying.

In the past the UN has been extremely biased against Israel and Israel has presented, over and over, evidence of ambulances being used to transport weapons and murderers. I even did a google search and found this: http://www.thenausea.com/elements/Pa...uexplode_a.wmv

I mean cut me a break.

-Rudey

Originally posted by RACooper
Oh I'm sorry... I presented an opinion that hey I came to myself as well. But from watching the specific video... on many sites including the IDF website I find it hard to believe that they could have concluded that this was indeed a Kassam rocket being loaded into the UN vehicle... physically it just doesn't work - the known base characteristics for the weapons don't gel with the motion of the individual nor nor do they conform to the object that he loads into the back of the vehicle.

Now playing devils advocate it is also concievable that a Kassam 1 could be concealed within a folded up stretcher... but the militants switched from using it nearly 3 years ago with the developement of the Kassam 2 and 3... because quite frankly it range and payload make it a very ineffective indirect fire weapon. So yes the remote possiblity exists that there could have been a concealed Kassam 1 involved.. again you wouldn't be able to see it in any video footage as the stretcher would totally conceal the object; so why would the IDF claim that the footage showed a Kassam missile being loaded into the UN vehicle? The images and the story just don't add up right now.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by kappaloo
So posting evidence and fact is "jumping on the bandwagon" but if anyone posts opinion than that's just discountable because it isn't evidence or facts...

I have big issues with this. UNRWA admitted that they have employees in Hamas, which they consider okay as long as they aren't miltants. However, many countries have declared Hamas a terrorist organization which creates a whole 'nother debate about funding UNRWA.

It's not out of line to think the footage could be of miltants and weapons. It's not the first time terrorists have hid behind the guise of just being part of the "political" portion of a miltant party.

No. My issue is that Peter Hansen made this claim immediately after the Israeli accusations. It was thrown into the media spotlight. And what does Cooper do? Well he does what he always does. He knows nothing about the region, the people, anything yet he supports anything Arab. He pretends it is his idea that this isn't a Kassam. In the past he's known so much about psychology, beheadings, been able to quote Fox news for a paragraph and say he had a good memory. I mean come on.

The UNRWA needs to be out of Israel ASAP.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
No. My issue is that Peter Hansen made this claim immediately after the Israeli accusations. It was thrown into the media spotlight. And what does Cooper do? Well he does what he always does. He knows nothing about the region, the people, anything yet he supports anything Arab. He pretends it is his idea that this isn't a Kassam. In the past he's known so much about psychology, beheadings, been able to quote Fox news for a paragraph and say he had a good memory. I mean come on.

The UNRWA needs to be out of Israel ASAP.

-Rudey

No Cooper actually uses his training and job qualifications to take his time to perform a little video/picture analyisis... what I said supported by the statistics from the IDF website as wel as Janes is that the allegations made based on the video evidence do not stand up to scrutiny... I listed the differing classes of Kassam (Qassam) Missiles and how they did either not conform to the base primary visual characteristics in the images presented, or not conform to the secondary characterists in the images presented... a primary characteristic would be a Kassam missile fitting into the dimensions of object carried by the individual in question - which it does if it is a Kassam 2 or 3... but it fails to meet the secondary level on image anaylsis... the physics are wrong - as in a man cannot casually carry a 70 to 200 lbs object without shifting his body or using other limbs to support his load. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for you... In this case the IDF allegations are wrong.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
No Cooper actually uses his training and job qualifications to take his time to perform a little video/picture analyisis... what I said supported by the statistics from the IDF website as wel as Janes is that the allegations made based on the video evidence do not stand up to scrutiny... I listed the differing classes of Kassam (Qassam) Missiles and how they did either not conform to the base primary visual characteristics in the images presented, or not conform to the secondary characterists in the images presented... a primary characteristic would be a Kassam missile fitting into the dimensions of object carried by the individual in question - which it does if it is a Kassam 2 or 3... but it fails to meet the secondary level on image anaylsis... the physics are wrong - as in a man cannot casually carry a 70 to 200 lbs object without shifting his body or using other limbs to support his load. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for you... In this case the IDF allegations are wrong.

So full of shit. So full of shit. How about you tell me how much you pay for Janes then? And now you are saying IDF allegations are wrong while Kofi Annan has launched a full investigation into this. Somehow you know it's wrong even before an investigation is done??? In the past this organization has taken part in the transfer of weapons and terrorists - including 4 months ago. They put out lies to the media over and over again and this UN agency is disgusting enough to say that they employ members of terrorist groups and find nothing wrong with it.

If you want to lie about a region you don't know, stick to somewhere like South East Asia because I don't have that much of an interest to call you out.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
So full of shit. So full of shit. How about you tell me how much you pay for Janes then? And now you are saying IDF allegations are wrong while Kofi Annan has launched a full investigation into this. Somehow you know it's wrong even before an investigation is done??? In the past this organization has taken part in the transfer of weapons and terrorists - including 4 months ago. They put out lies to the media over and over again and this UN agency is disgusting enough to say that they employ members of terrorist groups and find nothing wrong with it.

If you want to lie about a region you don't know, stick to somewhere like South East Asia because I don't have that much of an interest to call you out.

-Rudey

It's okay Rudey... let some more out and perhaps you won't be as full

As for how much I pay for Janes... well if I didn't have them supplied to me at work I would have to pay around $1500(USD) for each of the books (or in this case CDs) that I would need - but again luckily I get them at work so it's not a big deal because the full library costs around $40000 to $45000(USD) a year to keep up to date... only problem is of course I can take them out of the office for personal use so any reading or research has to be done there

As for knowing anything about the region... politics shouldn't be in the picture so to speak when looking at video or pictures for analysis - see post analysis it is up to others to place it in a regional context. As for the allegations made by the IDF in this specific case of the released video... um yes they would be wrong - however that does not remove the possibility that there allegations are true on the whole - in that militants have used UN vehicles of vehicles made to appear part of the UN in their transfer of material, munitions or men.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
It's okay Rudey... let some more out and perhaps you won't be as full

As for how much I pay for Janes... well if I didn't have them supplied to me at work I would have to pay around $1500(USD) for each of the books (or in this case CDs) that I would need - but again luckily I get them at work so it's not a big deal because the full library costs around $40000 to $45000(USD) a year to keep up to date... only problem is of course I can take them out of the office for personal use so any reading or research has to be done there

As for knowing anything about the region... politics shouldn't be in the picture so to speak when looking at video or pictures for analysis - see post analysis it is up to others to place it in a regional context. As for the allegations made by the IDF in this specific case of the released video... um yes they would be wrong - however that does not remove the possibility that there allegations are true on the whole - in that militants have used UN vehicles of vehicles made to appear part of the UN in their transfer of material, munitions or men.

Right keep talking. It must be nice to make things up. You have so much fake expertise. You should sell some used cars. Now you know all about Qassam rockets which are made by the Hamas, specific to the region. Right you know sooooo much. You already know whether it's true or not because you've done a fake investigation in your head.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
Right keep talking. It must be nice to make things up. You have so much fake expertise. You should sell some used cars. Now you know all about Qassam rockets which are made by the Hamas, specific to the region. Right you know sooooo much. You already know whether it's true or not because you've done a fake investigation in your head.

-Rudey

Actually it was a training exercise at work. Now Rudey before you slam other people for "not knowing anything about X" you should also realize that you do not know anything about video or picture analysis nor do you know much if anything about military munitions....