Black Relationships -- The Bridge: Where The Black Men Are

[12dn94dst]

I didn't write this and I don't know who did, but I do find it interesting. What do you think? Does this article have merit or is it hogwash?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like most hip young urbanites, I need three things: food, shelter and a damn good pedicure. So, as I made my weekly sojourn to the Flagship Randall's grocery store, I stopped by the magazine
aisle to stock up on my monthly reading staples: Essence, Black
Enterprise and Cosmopolitan.

As usual, I did my illegal reading of Jet magazine, which means, I read the whole thing from cover to cover without paying for it. As I drooled over the latest issue of Essence, with oh-so-fine Boris, I'm-hot-but-my-grill-is-jacked Shemar and I-think-I'm-cute Tyrese on the cover, I noticed the tagline at the top of the magazine: 'Forget Mr.Right! Create Your Own Wealth'. Nothing
unusual, I thought, just the usual rhetoric about sista's who don't need a man, which has become commonplace in Essence.

However, as I picked up my Cosmo in the white girls section, I noticed that most of their articles had a common thread about how to get a man. They all had taglines such as 'Find your Sexual Soul Mate', 'Date like A Pro', 'Build That Relationship' and 'Find Him, Marry Him!' As I looked back at my Essence with three physically, handsome men on the cover that would make any sane sista' think about settling down, I was curious to know why Essence would go left, instead of right. Hmmmm.

Why are sista's so geared towards accepting the fact that we
may always be single? Is this an unfortunate situation that we have been accustomed to? The last ten years have left black woman with "I can and will live life without a man", tattooed across our foreheads.

So, I ask myself this question: are the gatekeepers of the media
finally force-feeding us the "single til' I die" mentality that we've been whooping and hollering about all these years? Singledom is an accepted practice among most black urban professionals. A recent and interesting conversation with a mixed crowd of friends revealed some unpleasant truths. Some of us have settled in our minds that we are probably going to be single for the majority of
our adult lives, whole most of us are knee-deep in the dating game.

Sista's are doing the multiple dating thing, sometimes all in one day. It's not unusual for one of my sista friends to hook up with one brotha' for coffee in the morning, another for quick bit of lunch and then yet another for dinner and dancing later on that night. And, lest we forget, the brotha's are matching sista's date for date. They are just trying to spend as little money as possible in exchange for some company. This serial dating is supposed to be the in-thing for modern young urbanites. Marriage or even a
steady, monogamous relationship is just an afterthought.

The media portrays today's black woman as confident, sassy, independent and most importantly, in no need of a man to run
our show. Look at the movies geared towards us. Waiting to Exhale. How Stella got her Groove Back. Two Can Play That Game. All movies that scream, "this is how a 'real' black woman should be". The images of these types of women, who relish the thought of either getting rid of that damn negro or having a relationship that has absolutely nothing to do with getting married are becoming too commonplace for comfort.

Even movies geared towards black couples and families are
following this trend. Take The Best Man, for example. Nia Long's character, educated, smart and beautiful, is ridiculed for being too strong in her career, too independent for any man and eventually she endsup alone at the end of the movie. All this happens while
some ditz with no career rides into the sunset with a fine football player and a couple of million dollars and another ditz with too many careers get's a marriage proposal.

Let's look at Soul Food. The successful, beautiful lawyer played by Vanessa Williams ends up lonely and divorced while her ex-husband goes off to find a successful music career and the docile, submissive and crafty wife played by Vivica Fox keeps the whole family together. Huh? Isn't the strong black woman supposed to have it all? Where is her somewhere over the rainbow? Where is her damn marriage proposal? Where is her knight in shining black armor?

Well, one strong black woman did get her marriage proposal. In the Brothers, Shemar Moore's character almost made it to the
alter, despite the protests of his boys. However, after getting a
serious case of cold feet and selective amnesia when he forgot to tell his bride-to-be the change in plans, we see a beautiful, successful black woman turn into a hysterical, gun-toting, neck rotating psycho.

Now, let's take a look at the movies geared towards white
women. The Wedding Planner. Sweet November. What Women
Want. All movies with strong, independent white women. All are movies that explore relationships with white women. However, I noticed one startling difference between these and movies for black women. All these independent women, even the one that is dying in Sweet November, end up getting them a man. No matter how the character was portrayed, the end result was to show that life just isn't worth living without the right guy. Interesting, isn't it?

Even music pushes us away from cohabitation with a man. Who
was hired to write, produce and perform the sassy title track for
Charlie's Angels last year? Dream? Enya? Celine Dion? No, they picked Destiny's Child, whose audience, although white, includes a majority if young, black impressionable females, to loudly proclaim their independence from any man, for any thing they need.

The gatekeepers of the media are not people that look like us. Face the facts, the entire entertainment industry is run by old white men. Look at DIV Clive Davis, for God's sake. He is older then dirt and still turns out black artists. At the end of the day,
all these record labels, artists, producers,writers, television
executives and publishing houses are owned by the same people and they all look alike. So, if the gatekeepers of the media are allowing and encouraging these types of images to filter into the black community and we buy into it, are we subconsciously helping to justify the lack of strong, loving black relationships?

Dazzling young urbanites are at a crossroads in our personal
lives. We want to settle down, but we can't find someone
who doesn't make us physically nauseous after six months. We want to find a mate, but we are so scared of losing our independence in the relationship, that we wear our ass on our shoulders. We want to find love, but we have so many strings and bylaws, rules and regulations, on what our idea of a
relationship should be that the love becomes a distant afterthought.

Black women and black men, we have to ask the question: is
this the society we have created for ourselves or have we allowed society to create it for us? How did we get to the point where we began to embrace the media images that sabotage our chances of finding a meaningful relationship? And, in some way, have we helped the gatekeepers of the media by buying
into the drama?

If the stereotypes are correct, we might as well accept the
fact that we may be single for the rest of our natural lives. Those of us that do make an attempt at finding love will only get burned
in the process. Those of us who don't are considered the lucky ones. Of course, there is the argument that it's all just entertainment and that in real life, black men really do want a black woman who is independent, educated and sassy.

However, in the world of black love, reality doesn't fall too far from fiction and isn't it true that art often imitates life?

[CrimsonTide4]

This article had a lot of interesting articulations. Not all do I agree with but I respect what this author had to say.

1. As a single woman, I do see my potential mate pool diminished at times but that is due to a lot of factors. Number one, I really do not go out although when I do I am prejudiced against finding HIM @ a club, you know?

2. The whole media portrayal thing in terms of BLACK movies means that we need to begin to put stories of BLACK LOVE on the screen and on TV. We need to show families who are together for years. I know they are out there because I too read JET in the grocery lines or at the nail salon. Movies and TV do reflect aspects of BLACK reality, but we need to tell the whole story.

**I could go on and on about what is wrong with the media, TV, music, movies, the news, etc. but that is another topic for another day.**

[thesweetestone]

Originally posted by 12dn94dst

Let's look at Soul Food. The successful, beautiful lawyer played by Vanessa Williams ends up lonely and divorced while her ex-husband goes off to find a successful music career and the docile, submissive and crafty wife played by Vivica Fox keeps the whole family together. Huh? Isn't the strong black woman supposed to have it all? Where is her somewhere over the rainbow? Where is her damn marriage proposal? Where is her knight in shining black armor?

I agree with your comments accept this one. I personal think Vivica's character is the strong black woman in this movie. It 's takes alot to keep a family together. When times got hard, after their mother died, it was Vivica who had faith to know that it would be alright. Let's not forget she did take her sister's mantoo. Actually, I think being a little bit submissive is part of being a strong woman. Another thing just, because one woman is education and the other is not I don' t think that doesn't make the educated woman a stronger woman.

Even in real life women like Oprah and Starr Jones are still single.
Why? I don't know.

According to this month's Ebony, there is hope. there is an article about misconceptions about black relationships. I think it was five things. I too was reading illegally at the store, while in line. I not going to try to list them because i've forgot some of them.

[brainzandbeauty]

I appreciate the article for its honesty because I imagine that dating can be frustrating at times.

What I do not appreciate is bashing black women who lack formal education or who have no career. They may have jobs, but not a career. It seems to me that the article finds it unfair that these black women find love and professional women do not. Somehow being college educated and professionally driven entitles them to the Pefect Man and a Storybook Marriage. Sorry, that is not the case.

Since the writer used popular black movies to make a point... I'll do the same.

In Best Man, Mia was a smart student and that is how she got Morris' attention in the first place.. she was not a groupie pining for him every second. To call her "a ditz with no career" made no sense.

In Soul Food, Vanessa Williams lost her husband because she did not support his dream and she forgot how to have fun. Her job dominated too much of her life. It is that simple. She did not balance her life and that can happen to any woman regardless of her education level or career status. I mean, afterall, it is one thing to get married, it is quite another to make it work. I think her storyline served as a cautionary tale about letting career steer your entire existence. Of course, that does not excuse her trifling husband for cheating nor does it excuse the family for always sucking up to her for money.

Vivica's character made the choice to be a wife and mother and there is nothing wrong with that. Devoting yourself to your family is admirable. If anything, women who make this choice are mercilessly ridiculed and it was good to see some focus on someone like her.

Sorry for the long reply y'all.

[APhiAce]

I think the independent woman not NEEDING a man
is GREAT! One advantage is that it levels the playing field. Men have traditionally had the upper hand in relationships because of the socialization of women to find them a man to take care of them. You don't want your man having the same relationship w/you that you had with your father (who took care of you and made decisions/told you what to do). When you depend on someone, they have control over you. Now men have to come with more to the table than $. Since you don't need us for our $, our only use is companionship. We have to tighten up our game. We have to show more depth and dimension. What is wrong with a Black woman demanding more of a mans character? The trouble is that men aren't used to having deal on the level with women. There are so many women that mess it up for the rest by playing that submissive role, that many men flock to these women. This leaves the independent women solo.

You'll NEVER here a man say "I don't need a woman"(unless he's a fag) Believe me, if we couldn't get a woman, unless we cleaned up our act, we would DO IT! But men don't have too...cause so many women settle.

I believe men will come around though. They just have to resocialize themselves to learn how to interact with the independent women. Many men try and impress women with what they have. If you have as much, or more than me...then I'm voiceless....let me hollar at this chic who will "need" me. Of course you want a man who has something going for himself, but if you make it clear that you aren't out for anything but companionship, them most men would love that. We hate gold diggers. I see the promotion of the independent black woman as "women would rather be single then settle for a man not up to caliber". Their is nothing wrong with demanding from a man the same you demand for yourself.

On another note, the women population almost triples that of the male population. There isn't numerically enough men to go around, so it would help if somewomen didn't want a man or choose to be single.

[c&c1913]

I don't want to carry a man. Some men are lazy and not ready to commit. Some men don't have to commit when they have a woman or women taking care of them.

Look at the characters in the Best Man:
Morris Chestnut (supposedly reformed player)
Taye Diggs (scared to tell his woman he loves her, religious convictions)
Terrence Howard (player)
That other guy (finally developed a backbone)


This may tip-toe off the subject, but...

I grew up and went to a prodominately white school. I had many white friends and I tell you that most were raised with different expectations that my circle of black friends.

We were raised to make education first, boys can come later. Make the honor roll. Take advanced classes. Go to college. Get a job/ career. Then find a mate. But never depend on a man.

I can't tell you how many of my white friends met their husbands in college. They started dating and socializing with the opposite sex much earlier than we did. As early as 6th grade, they were having group dates and parties. It seems that their parents "pushed" or encourage them to flirt and have boyfriends. While our parents basically made boys =bad and trouble.

I think this carries over in adulthood and some of us learning to deal with men. I just came from a singles ministry conference this weekend and I learned alot. There were a lot of sistas there, so I know I'm not the only one having problems.

*Disclaimer- this is based on the personal observations/experiences of c&c1913*

[Kimmie1913]

An interesting point of view, I must admit. But, I think it doesn't address the entire issue, though. The characters in the movies are, in most cases, very shallow. (That is my problem with the characters.) Rarely do you learn why a person is driven in their career, jaded in their relationships, or why they are stupid or gullible about love. Let's use the Nia Long character from Best Man. She didn't end up with a man at the end of the movie, but for the majority of the movie, she was chasing after someone else's man. She complained of a lack of social life because of her long work hours, but she loved what she was doing. Just because she didn't get the man at the end of the movie should not matter. She made specific decisions which limited her ability to find someone to have a relationship with (or marry).

To compare some of the films where white successful women get the guy is also flawed. There are several movies where the woman gets the man, but she has to either have a disease which is cured, he's dying, there's some obsessed person chasing after her, or they have the relationship from hell and now they want to put it back together.

ONe of my best girls had this to say and I do concur...

I rather like the Essence hooks because magazines like Cosmopolitan concentrate on the physical only. For all that I know, men are looking for a woman who is pretty much together, can take care of herself financially, takes pride in her body, and actually are fun to be with. They don't want to spend their time with someone who is desperate. Some women wear clothes to attract a guy, but he wouldn't want his wife to wear some of those revealing clothes. The other thing is that some women don't want to look for men that they are not of the same race. My thing is think broadly.

While I believe that the media does make things seem dire, I think people should concentrate on having a good, healthy relationship where both parties grow. If it leads to marriage in 5 or more years, so be it. But to be a serial dater, having no issues about pursuing a man who is involved with someone else, desperate to get married, but not willing to think broadly about their options, is a complete waste of time. You can only control your actions, not the actions of others.

[AKA_Monet]

Ladies, (and I apologize for the length)

I ressurected this topic because I am in the midst of scouring my life house, so to speak. And all material I no longer use and do not need, all dead weight I must release from dead end relationships I must let go...

I read In The Meantime by Ilyanla Vanzant which has helped me immensely to reliquish the negativity I choose to hoard... I suggest that all ladies take the test in the first parts of her book and see which way you would respond given the question...

In response to the article, IMHO, there are forces that go way beyond most Afrikans in amerikkklan understandings of the nature of what our love connections should be. Sonbufo Some's book, Intimacy of the Spirit really clarified it for me as she related how her and her husband's Afrikan village and culture understands human interaction. One issue I had difficulty understanding was her concept that "no ONE of use belongs to each other--we ALL belong to each other and for the village"...

The other issue that helped me draw a perspective on our Man-Woman relationships is my pursuit and practice of the Tantra. In order to truthfully connect to another responsible human being, we MUST connect on a spiritual level. Given that most bruhs insurmountable odds for dealing in the MAN's world, how can we as sistahs demand that bruhs give us love similar to that which we see in the mainstream society... Rap artists already are find the folly of it when they discuss the "bling bling"... Just think of those who never will obtain it...

And although our bruhs face odds inconceivable, we sistahs do too! And ironically, when you KNOW OUR TRUE heritage--as Afrikan Centered, then you know that it was our woman that lead nations to their enlightenment--something that only can be a false attempt of mimicry by europee-on studs... Mitochondrial Eve, Auset, Neith, Hapshepset, Tyre, The Kandaces--Queen of Sheba-Makeda, Tiamat, Nefertiti, Neferteri, Sekhemet, Nephyths, Nandi, Nzingha...

Then all D4 Sororities can add to this list of our Universal anscestry...

So knowing that we Afrikan women--no ladies--no Goddesses--are beholden to an extensively RICH legacy, it is little wonder that most men can barely withstand our awesome powers... The Universe started with US--who do you think can end it... That is why we can never annihilated or become extinct--Humankind rests on OUR continued existence...

Just remember what I just mentioned when you allow stupid boys to mistreat you and not honor your true ancestorial spirit... Always walk within the blessed... I only say these statements because I've been there, I've done that...

Have a truly Blessed and Loving day!

[nikki25]

Thanks AlphaPhiAce and brainzandbeauty for setting the record straight.

I do appreciate the author's note of media perceptions of Black relationships. I am dismayed, however, by her seeming misinterpretations of the point of the movies and the reality of contemporary Black relationships.

These movies and articles reflect what is actually happening. Publications such as Essence are written by contemporary and progressive thinking sistahs who are actually going through the same drama as the rest of us. Second, I think that Black cinema is getting more sophisticated in that, it too, reflects what is actually happening (although fictional). Face it...there are problems with Black relationships and people deal with them in varied ways...that's what these depictions reflect. There is a dynasm in Black culture and relationships. We are at a place that is familiar, but not new terrain.

Black women and men are seeking companions and not simply economic partners. This idea is reaching a new height, but it isn't an entirely new phenomenon.

Moreover, there is nothing wrong with a woman who does find a gentleman who is able to be the breadwinner. Being a housewife is a noble occupation. It relies on skills gained in formal academic programs such as: Psychology, Economics, Education, Business, and English. To call characters such as Mia in The Best Man and Vivica's character in Soul Food a ditz is totally wrong. Also, you can be a career woman and be a ditz. Jordan was quite the intelligent woman, but couldn't discover that if she wanted to maintain a relationship, she need to find balance.

That's a lesson that many buppie women have a hard time understanding....you can have it all...but it requires balance. Sisters cannot enter relationships like a business deal. It requires sharing, negotiation, time, and willingness. Good relationships are not entered into simply because you meet the minimum qualifications. Rather, it is because you recognize that you want a companion. At the end of movies such as Two Can Play that Game, The Brothers, and Love Jones, that point was driven home in a crystal clear fashion.

In this day, there is a need to continue to nurture one's professional acumen, but also nurture the personal character...which is challenged by modern relationships. I've not seen mainstream publications that frequently speak on this balance. That's the deficiency of Black media.

Black cinema and publications, in my opinion are acting like the way Bob Marley and the Wailers did in the '70s...they are simply reporting the news. Its the state of Black Love...and we've got to own up to it...and engage in dialogue so that both sides can understand and meet the challenges at this station.

[CrimsonTide4]

THE BRIDGE: Where The Black Men Are -- The Simple Truth by Darryl James

Darryl James


(Jul. 12, 2004) The more I hear Black women complain about not being able to find decent Black men, the more my heart and mind become weary, because I am committed to Black women.

I remain committed, however, the words of some of today's Black women leave me saddened and temporarily disheartened.

Some Black women blame their singleness solely on Black men, citing that since good Black men are hard for them to find, that there are less decent single Black men that ever before in history.

This is not based on any verified data, which is always confusing to the throngs of quality single men who can not find the "abundance" of quality single women those magazines always write about.

Some Black women say that "most" Black men are in prison, that "more" Black men are gay and that the "best" Black men are married to white women, but none of that has been statistically supported.

It is sad, but there are more Black men in prison than in college. And yes, there are Black men dying from gang violence and from drugs, but that is not "most" of the Black male population. There are throngs of Black men who live beyond all of the things that are horribly wrong, and a great number are neither gay nor with white women.

The dicey proposition is when Black women say that Black men are beneath their level (financial or education), when in fact, Black people in America don't yet have an intrinsic level. Even many of our so-called middle class live one paycheck away from disaster.

Black women, if you examine a man's character first, you will find that there are more of us than you imagined.

Certainly Black men in America have challenges, but in this nation, we are both challenged-Black male and female.

Yet with all of our challenges, some of us are still finding each other and marrying each other. Anyone can point out that marriages are fewer and divorces are more abundant, but those are stats for the masses-they don't have to apply to the individual.

Perhaps the bigger problem is that many Black women are no longer in circles where quality Black men can be found.

The sad fact is that many of us work in a world where there are few of us and live on a block where there are also few of us, yet we complain about not finding us and talk about the sorry state of those of us we run into.

Communities are fragmented, clubs are polluted and many church singles ministries mislead people into relationships with other people who attend church service, but do little to follow the teachings of the ministries.

Yes, things are more challenging than they have been in a long time, but the challenges appear even greater because of the negative things being said about Black men on television, in those magazines, and, oh yes, in circles of single Black women.

I know why Black women say some of the things that they have been saying. It's because they are hurt and afraid.

Black men are also hurt and afraid.

Any of us over the age of 21 has a thought-provoking fear, which can lead us away from finding love, as opposed to hugging expensive creature comforts in solitude, fear and pain, which morph into hatred.

Too many of us thought that we could make things better for ourselves as individuals, but now, the chickens have come home to roost, because many of us can not find quality mates.

We fell from grace when we stopped talking to each other and began talking about each other. If we wish to make things better, I believe it begins with communication.

The charge for each of us--men and women--is to begin to discuss the problems we both face, without expressing the fear and hatred that have been welling up inside of us.

I want one wish to go around the world faster than an internet hoax or a Jesus chain letter, and I want for each person reading this to pass it on to another person, married or single.

That one simple wish is for Black men and women to begin to change our minds about each other. Perception is reality and we must begin to perceive each other differently so that we can love each other again.

I want to let Black women know that there are still some good, kind and decent Black men in the world and we are having a hard time finding them as well.

Black men are in the grocery store because we have to eat, too. Black men are in the gas station, because we have to drive, and yes, some of us are on the bus or train. Black men are at fraternity banquets, and Black men are at plays, museums, the church and the mosque.

Black men can be found in a number of places and many times we are right beside you-all you have to do is smile. Be sweet and inviting and you may get more than the reprobates to ask for your number, or be progressive and initiate contact with us. Whatever you do, be grounded and open.

I advise both men and women to look for something that exists. If you are a single woman looking for a single man, look for examples in the men around you. Your father, brother, uncle, cousin or neighbor may be married and may serve as a good measurement for the men you date.

We may not look like Denzel or bling bling like a rap music video, but some of us are hard working, decent men with solid husband and father potential, ready to love and to be loved.

You have to look around you and find real examples, because once you are convinced that we don't exist, then, for you, we don't.

Black women, stop saying that you can't find a good man, or that we just don't exist. Come at us in love and what you will find from many of the sane, single Black men is real love-we're trying to find you and we want you, too.

Where are the Black men? We're right here.

Darryl James is the author of "Bridging The Black Gender Gap," which is also the basis of his lectures and seminars. James was awarded the 2004 Non-fiction Award for his book on the Los Angeles Riots at the Seventh Annual Black History Month Book Fair and Conference in Chicago. He can be reached at djames@TheBlackGenderGap.com

(I got this in an e-mail so not sure as to the exact source)

[RedefinedDiva]

Where do I begin?

Where are all these great, available, Black men that are just loooonging to find a Black woman like myself? Where are they? I haven't seen any and they don't seem to be making themselves available.

This artcle is just saying the same things over and over. There are quality men in the world; they are hurt and afraid; Black women are the blame (we aren't receptive and inviting); etc. WHATEVER!!! He also suggests that we look around at men in our lives. What about them? They may not be all put together themselves.

Someone should organize a big Quality Single Men and Women Rally. Maybe there we can find one another. Until then, I'll never believe that there are millions of hurt and afraid men just waiting to find a woman like myself to love.

[TheEpitome1920]

Has anyone seen the new Essence? It has Jill Scott on the cover and in big bold letters is "Do Black Men Still Want Us"

[RedefinedDiva]

Originally posted by TheEpitome1920
Has anyone seen the new Essence? It has Jill Scott on the cover and in big bold letters is "Do Black Men Still Want Us"

I have the issue. I haven't gotten to the article yet, but I am about to read it right now.

[Boom_Quack13]

Originally posted by TheEpitome1920
Has anyone seen the new Essence? It has Jill Scott on the cover and in big bold letters is "Do Black Men Still Want Us"

I have the issue and read the article. It is about the downlow brothas. Personally, I am tired of the topic. It has become so sensationalized. I understand the importance of the topic, but short of hiring a private investigator or stalking a man yourself, how will you really know if he is on the DL? Not to mention that sleeping with DL men is not the only way to contract HIV/AIDS. I had a gay friend when I was in my late teens/early twenties. He hipped us to the concept of DL brothas before it was a national topic. I was in awe at the time. He told us some of the same stories that we hear now: men on the DL infecting women, men coming from prison tuned out, and masculine men sleeping with other masculine men. All of those things contribute to the AIDS epidemic, but what about the fully heterosexual men who are sleeping around spreading AIDS? And what about the loose sistas who are contracting and spreading AIDS as well? I think that too much blame is being placed on a group of people who are already forced to practice their lifestyle on the fringes of society. Also, nobody mentions sistas on the DL. They exist also, and live just as deceptively as the men on the DL. Another thing that is overlooked is that Black men are not the only DL men. DL men come in all races. This proccupation with Black men on the DL also seems like another attempt to demasculate our brothas. I'm not saying that they don't exist or contribute to the AIDS problem. I'm just saying they are not the only factor, nor have they been proven to be the biggest factor. Okay, that's my $19.13 for that topic.

[Lady of Pearl]

After many years on the dating scene I finally Praise the Lord! met a decent Black man- how through a relative of mine-Let's not forget the old fashioned way people use to meet like our mothers and fathers did and most people in asian cultures do-through their family. I was quite surprised that the person I talked to did not want to cut to the chase as most men do; he actually believed in friendship first, something that is not overly emphasized enough in building relationships. As someone said we have it backwards we date to marry- when we should marry to- date. Those who know- know what I mean.- Also, as one stated earlier one should look beyond class levels when considering a mate, I know one Soror who is too hung up on a man's occupation i.e. Doctor, Lawyer you get the picture. There are nice Blue Collar guys who are just as deserving-it was good enough for my Dad and it's good enough for me!