Public Housing

[PhiPsiRuss]

I harbor no ill will for people who live in public housing, but I absolutely hate it. Never has so much money gone to the destruction of neighborhoods, and the institutionalization of poverty.

The architecture is terrible. Le Corbusier's "tower in the park" may have some fans, but it is a terrible idea for housing projects. The park area must be maintained, at extra operational expense, or be neglected. Such neglect encourages criminal activity. The towers are way too tall. 30 story buildings are for affluent people because such buildings are more expensive to operate. 5-6 story buildings are the most cost effective. Then there is the reality that "towers in a park" break the urban grid, and isolate residents from a neighborhood.

Even if the architecture was good, housing projects usually exclude retail space. Stupid, stupid, stupid. In the private sector, first floor residential apartments are the least valuable. Retail, however, is profitable, and could help offset government subsidies. Also, retail provides goods and services. There are concentrations of public housing where the residents must travel to purchase basic goods and services. This lowers their quality of life. Retail also provides jobs, some of which would surely go to residents.

The earliest proponents of public housing, in the US, advocated the inclusion of retail space, as well as religous congregations. I understand the conflict with using public money for religion, but more thought should have gone here. Many different ethnic and racial groups have had their people in public housing, and continue to do so. However, I believe that African-Americans were hurt most by this exclusion. Black America is religous, and have traditionally relied on their churches as a support mechanism.

Then there is the warehousing of the poor. If you move into public housing, and start making a certain amount of money, you have to move out. So what happens? Those families who can get there act together move out, and you get an increasing concentration of dysfuntional families. They can't provide any effective support for each other, and provide negative examples to each other. This is institutionalizing poverty, and as I see it, its just wrong.

Some cities have addressed the terrible architecture of public housing. In the 1980s, Mayor Schmokes of Baltimore began a program of tearing down the tall, monolithic projects, and replaced them with townhouses. Townhouses fit the urban landscape much better, and are a more human scale. Newark has followed Baltimore's example, and hopefully others will follow suit.

I'd like to see this taken to the next step. Concentrating the poor is inhumane, as I see it. They should be dispersed among the general population, not isolated from it.

[Phasad1913]

I agree with your points. The dispersing of the poor throughout other communities, however, even though it is slowly beginning to happen, will take a very long time because there are just far too many people who don't want these people coming into their neighborhoods.

[Kevin]

I agree. My youngest brother lives in an apartment complex near Oklahoma U that is mostly section 8. The folks there have been kind enough to instruct him on how to get on welfare and stay on welfare for an indefinite period of time. No one there works, they mostly sit on their fat asses and apply for jobs every so often, then go screw up the interview on purpose. If they do happen to get jobs, they just don't show up.

Social workers are not encouraged to question this. They are just supposed to pass out the benefits packages and not ask questions. Our welfare system has done too much to let people get fat, dumb, happy and lazy. We've institutionalized poverty to the point that for many, being on welfare gets them a better standard of living than actually having a job and trying to pay their own bills would.

[winneythepooh7]

Originally posted by ktsnake
I agree. My youngest brother lives in an apartment complex near Oklahoma U that is mostly section 8. The folks there have been kind enough to instruct him on how to get on welfare and stay on welfare for an indefinite period of time. No one there works, they mostly sit on their fat asses and apply for jobs every so often, then go screw up the interview on purpose. If they do happen to get jobs, they just don't show up.

Social workers are not encouraged to question this. They are just supposed to pass out the benefits packages and not ask questions. Our welfare system has done too much to let people get fat, dumb, happy and lazy. We've institutionalized poverty to the point that for many, being on welfare gets them a better standard of living than actually having a job and trying to pay their own bills would.

Obviously spoken by someone who has never taken a social welfare organization & policy course. I am sorry but as a Social Worker I strongly disagree with your ignorant post. We are not encouraged to "look the other way" and "not ask questions". Do you understand how stereotypical and down right disgusting your post is? Do you actually believe that most poor people are happy being on welfare and making their couple dollars per month? I am sorry but you are sadly mistaken, being on welfare and public assistance does not give anyone a "better standard of living". I encourage you to join me on any typcial day "in the field" to see the sad reality of what many poor people in our society are up against. How do you expect people to get jobs that have no skills? And how do you expect people to be able to make a decent living on low paying jobs such as working at McDonald's? Then what about the majority of people who are poor because they are disabled or have mental illness who CANNOT work. Shame on you KTSNAKE. I think you need to do some research.

[winneythepooh7]

Originally posted by Phasad1913
I agree with your points. The dispersing of the poor throughout other communities, however, even though it is slowly beginning to happen, will take a very long time because there are just far too many people who don't want these people coming into their neighborhoods.

I don't think it has as much to do with people not wanting people coming into their neighborhoods as it has to do with there not being AFFORDABLE housing in most neighborhoods. How can people pay for a decent apartment on SSI (which is about $500 a month in NYC)? And even for those that do end up getting a job, most likely it is not at a skilled job and they are only making minimum wage which does not cut it when it comes to paying for the basic necesities of everyday life.

[winneythepooh7]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
I harbor no ill will for people who live in public housing, but I absolutely hate it. Never has so much money gone to the destruction of neighborhoods, and the institutionalization of poverty.

The architecture is terrible. Le Corbusier's "tower in the park" may have some fans, but it is a terrible idea for housing projects. The park area must be maintained, at extra operational expense, or be neglected. Such neglect encourages criminal activity. The towers are way too tall. 30 story buildings are for affluent people because such buildings are more expensive to operate. 5-6 story buildings are the most cost effective. Then there is the reality that "towers in a park" break the urban grid, and isolate residents from a neighborhood.

Even if the architecture was good, housing projects usually exclude retail space. Stupid, stupid, stupid. In the private sector, first floor residential apartments are the least valuable. Retail, however, is profitable, and could help offset government subsidies. Also, retail provides goods and services. There are concentrations of public housing where the residents must travel to purchase basic goods and services. This lowers their quality of life. Retail also provides jobs, some of which would surely go to residents.

The earliest proponents of public housing, in the US, advocated the inclusion of retail space, as well as religous congregations. I understand the conflict with using public money for religion, but more thought should have gone here. Many different ethnic and racial groups have had their people in public housing, and continue to do so. However, I believe that African-Americans were hurt most by this exclusion. Black America is religous, and have traditionally relied on their churches as a support mechanism.

Then there is the warehousing of the poor. If you move into public housing, and start making a certain amount of money, you have to move out. So what happens? Those families who can get there act together move out, and you get an increasing concentration of dysfuntional families. They can't provide any effective support for each other, and provide negative examples to each other. This is institutionalizing poverty, and as I see it, its just wrong.

Some cities have addressed the terrible architecture of public housing. In the 1980s, Mayor Schmokes of Baltimore began a program of tearing down the tall, monolithic projects, and replaced them with townhouses. Townhouses fit the urban landscape much better, and are a more human scale. Newark has followed Baltimore's example, and hopefully others will follow suit.

I'd like to see this taken to the next step. Concentrating the poor is inhumane, as I see it. They should be dispersed among the general population, not isolated from it.

Russ definately gives the most educated observation.

[winneythepooh7]

I am still a little heated from this topic. Our society has a history of placing blame on poor people for their situations. I think everyone needs to put themselves in other people's shoes before making ignorant statements about people. I work with extremely vulnerable clients: homeless, mentally ill, substance abusers. For the most part people blame the clients for their conditions but I can't believe anyone truly would want to be poor, homeless, mentally ill or a substance abuser. And by all means, I don't see how these conditions are their faults in the majority of the cases. I respect and admire my clients for what they have SURVIVED in their fragile lives. It makes me appreciate my comfy lifestyle that I live and I am very thankful that I have had a supportive family and resources to help me get to where I am today. Many people don't have these things and it is not their fault. It is interesting because I also observe many people of affluence to be "more screwed up" and "heartless" then many of the poorest "craziest" clients and "druggies" I have dealt with in my past 6 years in the field.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by winneythepooh7
Obviously spoken by someone who has never taken a social welfare organization & policy course. I am sorry but as a Social Worker I strongly disagree with your ignorant post. We are not encouraged to "look the other way" and "not ask questions". Do you understand how stereotypical and down right disgusting your post is? Do you actually believe that most poor people are happy being on welfare and making their couple dollars per month? I am sorry but you are sadly mistaken, being on welfare and public assistance does not give anyone a "better standard of living". I encourage you to join me on any typcial day "in the field" to see the sad reality of what many poor people in our society are up against. How do you expect people to get jobs that have no skills? And how do you expect people to be able to make a decent living on low paying jobs such as working at McDonald's? Then what about the majority of people who are poor because they are disabled or have mental illness who CANNOT work. Shame on you KTSNAKE. I think you need to do some research.

All I know are what the people in my brother's section 8 apartment complex tell him. It's actually a fairly nice place and they're happy the way things are.

Maybe things in Oklahoma are different? I work in family law, so I have plenty of contact with social workers. I can tell you that they really don't ask too many questions when someone applies for benefits. I've seen some f'd up abuses of the system here.

I'm not talking about the "majority" of people, just what I've observed first-hand.

[winneythepooh7]

Originally posted by ktsnake
All I know are what the people in my brother's section 8 apartment complex tell him. It's actually a fairly nice place and they're happy the way things are.

Maybe things in Oklahoma are different? I work in family law, so I have plenty of contact with social workers. I can tell you that they really don't ask too many questions when someone applies for benefits. I've seen some f'd up abuses of the system here.

I'm not talking about the "majority" of people, just what I've observed first-hand.

Somehow I doubt things are that much different for poorer people in OK then they are in NY. And do you believe everything "people tell you or your brother"? For someone in "family law" I would hope that you would do some research yourself and make your OWN decisions. Also there are some abuses of the system, however, as I said earlier, it has to do with the fact that the only jobs available for people with no skills are minimum wage with NO benefits. How do people pay for rent and food on that salary? Also how do they pay for their very expensive psychotropic medication and hefty healthcare fees. If you are living in poverty you are under a lot of stress which any person with common sense would understand causes a great deal more of mental health issues and health problems. I still think it sounds pretty off that the people "are happy with the way things are."

[Kevin]

Originally posted by winneythepooh7
Somehow I doubt things are that much different for poorer people in OK then they are in NY. And do you believe everything "people tell you or your brother"? For someone in "family law" I would hope that you would do some research yourself and make your OWN decisions. Also there are some abuses of the system, however, as I said earlier, it has to do with the fact that the only jobs available for people with no skills are minimum wage with NO benefits. How do people pay for rent and food on that salary? Also how do they pay for their very expensive psychotropic medication and hefty healthcare fees. If you are living in poverty you are under a lot of stress which any person with common sense would understand causes a great deal more of mental health issues and health problems. I still think it sounds pretty off that the people "are happy with the way things are."

I'm not talking about people with mental health problems. I've been to my little brother's apt. complex. I've run into a few of these folks. You wouldn't know that they were social services leaches. I agree that welfare gives a better life than many low-wage jobs. For someone in "family law", I've seen how damned easy it is to get DHS to give out benefits packages -- often in situations where they SHOULD ask questions, they don't (in fact, I've never heard of them rejecting an application). You're bringing a bunch of crap into this that I didn't even bring up. Sure, crazy people need drugs.. when was I saying that we should take away their lithium??

[winneythepooh7]

Originally posted by ktsnake
I'm not talking about people with mental health problems. I've been to my little brother's apt. complex. I've run into a few of these folks. You wouldn't know that they were social services leaches. I agree that welfare gives a better life than many low-wage jobs. For someone in "family law", I've seen how damned easy it is to get DHS to give out benefits packages -- often in situations where they SHOULD ask questions, they don't (in fact, I've never heard of them rejecting an application). You're bringing a bunch of crap into this that I didn't even bring up. Sure, crazy people need drugs.. when was I saying that we should take away their lithium??

I think you sound very ignorant. It is not easy to get benefits, and how do YOU know what the people living in your brother's apt. complex situations are? What makes them "social services leaches"? And for your information people who SHOULD be getting benefits packages are getting rejected every day. Take a look at the news this evening regarding the homeless situation in NYC.
www.ny1news.com

I am not bringing up "a bunch of crap" I am only proving how people like you make an awful lot of ASSUMPTIONS and you know what they say about people who make ASSumptions.............

[Kevin]

Originally posted by winneythepooh7
I think you sound very ignorant. It is not easy to get benefits, and how do YOU know what the people living in your brother's apt. complex situations are? What makes them "social services leaches"? And for your information people who SHOULD be getting benefits packages are getting rejected every day. Take a look at the news this evening regarding the homeless situation in NYC.
www.ny1news.com

I am not bringing up "a bunch of crap" I am only proving how people like you make an awful lot of ASSUMPTIONS and you know what they say about people who make ASSumptions.............

Okay, when they brag about how easy it is to work the system and collect a check, yeah, I tend to think of them as leaches. When they're living at home with their kids and sitting on their butts all day, yeah.. I tend to think that's abusing the system. When they say that all they have to do is show they they were turned down for a job in order to continue benefits... Yup. Abusing the system. Some situations may be complex, some may be as simple as not wanting to work and seeing this as a pleasant alternative. The apartment complex is a pretty decent place in the middle of a college town. Not a bad place to raise a kid. It has decent schools. Now, I do know that there is a lot of crime in that particular complex (seems to come with the territory when we're talking Section 8).

I don't think I'd have to be going out on a limb to say that things in New York and Oklahoma are VERY different. We've represented plenty of people who have had dealings with DHS -- I can say that in my DIRECT dealings with DHS, they were pretty clueless and overwhelmed. They are more likely to just hand out the packages than to ask questions. Could do with the fact that unlike in NY, as far as I know to be a social worker in Oklahoma, you just need a Bachelor's Degree (in any field). I understand that y'all are required to have Masters Degrees.

[winneythepooh7]

Could do with the fact that unlike in NY, as far as I know to be a social worker in Oklahoma, you just need a Bachelor's Degree (in any field). I understand that y'all are required to have Masters Degrees. [/B][/QUOTE]

That is definately a problem right there. Not to pat myself on my back but I notice that a lot of people that work in the social work field really are clueless themselves. Many people working in this field do not have the education or experience to work with the complex cases they work with. I am the only person in my program with a Master's in Social Work and again, not to pat myself on the back, but I really can see the difference in the way of thinking amongst myself and my co-workers. But until people who are providing social work services educate themselves, there are going to continue to be problems. I belong to several Social Work listservs and many people in the mid-Western states and the South justify their not going on to educate themselves because the system in those states doesn't give you any difference in pay or title for having the extra priceless education and experience. This is the problem with our society~~our society continues to look at professions other then Social Work (ie. business, law) as being more "worthy" then the helping professions, and that is why my field continues also to be so low-paying. This post is not meant to be a personal attack because you are not the only person who thinks this way about a lot of people in our society. Until there is a universal health care system and more affordable housing is created problems are going to continue. Oh yeah, one more thing, be careful about calling people that take medication crazy, I re-read that in your earlier post. Just because people take meds does not make them crazy and I know with recent posts on the topic of mental illness that is going to bring up a lot of unneccessary problems that we can just avoid by ceasing the debate right now.

[Kevin]

Can I call 'em nutjobs instead?

Sorry, my un-pcness doth offend.

But please believe me when I tell you that from our conversation here, our DHS programs in Oklahoma are VASTLY different from NY. And they should be. Y'all have more people and more serious problems. Our social services folks have their B.A.'s in underwater basketweaving, etc. They're not bad people, but they are grossly understaffed, undercompensated and underqualified. And yes, that does lead to abuses of the system.

[winneythepooh7]

ok thanks for clarifying. i actually was asked to not speak on a listserv anymore because of my views that everyone in the social work field who calls themselves a social worker should have their master's because of the disservice they provide to their clients and the system in general. i decided to leave the listserv because i wasn't going to "not speak" because some unqualified people were offended by my posts. oh well. this is a whole other discussion in itself.