Poor State of Black Men in Higher ED

[DoggyStyle82]

NEWS FRIDAY • December 6, 2002



Colleges seek black men
Regents study targets obstacles that deter enrollment in Georgia universities.
Rebecca McCarthy - Staff
Friday, December 6, 2002


Low expectations, a preference for sports over academics, poor preparation and a lack of confidence are factors keeping young black men out of Georgia colleges.

These are some of the findings of researchers hired by the state Board of Regents to help it figure out why so few black men are enrolled in Georgia's public colleges and universities.

The Regents want to stop the decline of African-American male students. With $200,000 provided by the state Legislature, the Regents, who govern the 34 schools in the University System, have commissioned a 52-member task force and launched an investigation to learn what's preventing young black men from attending, and finishing, college in Georgia. The group is charged with having recommendations for action by the Regents by April 2003.

"It's a terrific problem, nationally, and in this state," said University System Chancellor Tom Meredith. "I'm hoping we'll gain some insights. You have to identify problems before you can start to address them."

At the University of Georgia, for example, black men account for just under 2 percent of the student body. Black females outnumber black males at UGA by 2-to-1, a typical ratio at Georgia's public campuses.

UGA student Kununmi Mills, 22, is well aware that he is one of relatively few black men at the state's flagship institution. A native of Stone Mountain and a graduate of Green Forest Christian Academy, Mills knew as a child that he would attend college. He thinks one of the goals of the Regents task force should be to instill the idea of going to college in young men before they enter high school.

"You've got to show them the rewards and the bigger picture that comes after if you have a college degree," said Mills, who's studying computer science and philosophy. "Some guys think of education as a burden, not as something that can lead places."

The dwindling number of black men --- and men in general --- finishing college is being studied by academics and policy experts from California to Connecticut. Georgia is the first to investigate the issue as a statewide problem, according to Bill Harvey, who works in the Office of Minorities in Higher Education, part of the American Council on Education.

In the past several weeks, Paul Warner and Associates, a metro Atlanta market research firm hired by the Regents, has conducted 19 focus groups on eight different University System campuses. The purpose was to elicit from young men themselves what barriers they faced in getting into college and whether they intended to further their educations.

Interviewers talked with young black men who are college freshmen and sophomores, with high school juniors and seniors and with African-American men, 18 to 25 years old, who live in communities with colleges but who aren't enrolled in school.

The high school students were interested in the military, technical school or college "as a way to have a better life than their parents, not for intellectual reasons," Warner said. "They're practical about it. They see schooling as a way to earn more money to get more stuff."

From college students, Warner learned that parents were the biggest influence on whether the young men went to college. Whether the parents had a college degree or not, they drummed it into their son from a young age that he was headed to college, "saying you either go to college or you leave the house," he said. "Sometimes a guidance counselor could identify something and encourage a young man to go to college."

Most troubling to Warner were stories from the 18-to-25-year olds, who were either working in dead-end, low-skill jobs, engaging in some mysterious enterprise or unemployed. They had "fallen out of the loop," he said, and had no way for re-entry. "What's sad is that they're working at McDonald's, but they're still dreaming the dream and thinking they're headed for the NBA."

African-American athletes usually fared well in high school, Warner said, "because at least they graduated. But if they didn't get a scholarship to college, that was it. They weren't prepared academically for college work and didn't go."

For one young man, a minor disciplinary incident --- not tucking in his shirttail --- resulted in a six-day suspension. He fell behind in his classes, couldn't catch up and eventually left school. "I was surprised that one infraction could essentially ruin someone's life," Warner said. "Disciplinary problems are used as an indication that someone isn't college material."

And some of the young men interviewed said they had been taught that college was too difficult for them. Rather than risk failing, they wouldn't even attempt to enroll, "because failure is not an emotional option for them," Warner said. "Their ego is the thing that sustains them. They attempt only those things that are attainable."

Jamie Dillard, 21, of Crawford works as a custodian at UGA. He didn't participate in the survey but believes the initiative is a good idea.

He might now be in college or technical school if he hadn't "made some wrong choices," Dillard said. One of those was buying a new car right after he finished high school. He had to go to work to make car payments and buy insurance, and to pay off credit card debt. In addition to UGA, he works at Dial America.

After three years of mopping and cleaning, Dillard knows he wants to do something else, and believes that studying computer science at Athens Technical College is a viable option. He hopes to be working only one job next year and to find the time for school courses that "will lead to something I'd like to do," he said.

Task force member Kati Haycock said some of the young men Warner interviewed had problems in public school that likely began at an early age.

Haycock, director of the Washington D.C.-based nonprofit Education Trust, which works with school districts to help disadvantaged students, said black children are more likely to be poor and with uneducated parents who haven't prepared them well for kindergarten. They're more likely to have less effective and experienced teachers, who may guide them into less demanding courses, she said.

"On average, 34 percent of white children who start kindergarten go to college, while only 17 percent of black children do," said Haycock. "It's not surprising that, given the skills difference, African-American children are less likely to go to college, and to survive once there."

Jan Kettlewell, associate vice chancellor with the Board of Regents, said that nationally, and in Georgia, a disproportionate number of African-American boys are in special education classes, largely because of behavior problems. Once there, "they never get out," she said. "There's no way they can become college-ready because they won't have the necessary courses. They'll be behind academically forever."

She said that while the Regents can't set educational policies for public schools, they can work as partners with the State Department of Education. The Regents can change programs in the state's public colleges and universities to better prepare principals, guidance counselors and teachers, who assign children into special education classes.

"This is the first time we've singled out a particular ethnic and gender group," Kettlewell said. "We're going to try and implement things that make a difference."

FALL 2001 ENROLLMENT
Institution..................Total........Black... ..Black
.............................enrollment...male.... ..female
RESEARCH INSTITUTIONS
Ga. Tech.....................15,575.......747.......49 4
Ga. State....................25,743.......1,938.....4, 940
MCG..........................2,377........47...... ..148
UGA..........................32,317.......609..... ..1,223
REGIONAL UNIVERSITIES
Ga. Southern.................14,371.......1,455.....2, 176
Valdosta State...............9,230........599.......1,313
STATE UNIVERSITIES
Albany State.................3,456........1,014.....2,142
Armstrong State..............5,747........272.......998
Augusta State................5,407........334.......961
Clayton State................4,675........490.......1,408
Columbus State...............5,521........453.......960
Fort Valley..................2,485........963.......1,3 29
Ga. College/State............5,079........204.......554
Ga. Southwestern.............2,535........141.......50 7
Kennesaw State...............13,951.......435.......1,040
No. Ga. College..............3,863........58........65
Savannah State...............2,270........822.......1,266
So. Poly.....................3,556........552.......24 4
West Ga......................9,030........598.......131 2
STATE COLLEGES
Dalton State.................3,647........33........52
Macon State..................4,485........351.......1077
TWO-YEAR COLLEGES
ABAC.........................2,857........145..... ..314
Atl. Metro...................1,940........623.......1.2 34
Bainbridge College...........1,735........163.......498
Coastal Ga...................2,210........141.......358
Darton College...............3,179........257.......922
East Ga. College.............1,393........183.......307
Floyd College................2,400........67........183
Ga. Perimeter................15,372.......1,511.....3, 467
Gordon College...............3,074........207.......505
Middle Ga. College...........2,165........311.......316
South Ga. College............1,325........89........210
Waycross College.............884..........46........131
Source: University System of Georgia

[AKA2D '91]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
[B]NEWS FRIDAY • December 6, 2002


Jan Kettlewell, associate vice chancellor with the Board of Regents, said that nationally, and in Georgia, a disproportionate number of African-American boys are in special education classes, largely because of behavior problems.

Not totally. It's also because of POOR classroom management skills. As early as the 2nd grade, students are being referred for Special Education. More times than not, they REMAIN in SE until the end.

It's very, very sad. Many of the AA boys/men I see everyday at work are not interested in attending a 2-yr, let alone a 4-year program, unless they have a GREAT chance at getting an athletic scholarship.

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by AKA2D '91


Not totally. It's also because of POOR classroom management skills. As early as the 2nd grade, students are being referred for Special Education. More times than not, they REMAIN in SE until the end.

It's very, very sad. Many of the AA boys/men I see everyday at work are not interested in attending a 2-yr, let alone a 4-year program, unless they have a GREAT chance at getting an athletic scholarship.

You are right AKA@D'91. Many Black Males get sentenced to SE because of behavioral problems and not really due to learning capabilities. These problems start at home and are put upon school systems. Schools and teachers are so overwhelmed that they do the easy thing and push the problem aside.

[Love_Spell_6]

At my undergrad univ. (old dominion univ) the african american men that are there are still trying to be "thugs" for the most part. I could never understand why guys came to school, but were still trying to rappers, gangsta's etc. And for the ones that are trying to be on the straight and narrow, grades aren't really all that important.

Sometimes I'd look at the brothers on campus and think...If we (my generation) are the leaders of 2morrow, we are in trouble.

But as far as getting more African American men enrolled, that effort definitely starts in the home. (that's always my answer for everything, but it's true) If they are only showed that the only ways to "make it" are to either rap, hustle, or be nba stars.... why would they even think about college? It's not a viable option.

But the one thing I don't understand, is why African American women seem to be managing to try to overcome their circumstances...and really go to school to make a better future for themselves...and the brothas just kinda fall victim to their circumstances...

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
At my undergrad univ. (old dominion univ) the african american men that are there are still trying to be "thugs" for the most part. I could never understand why guys came to school, but were still trying to rappers, gangsta's etc. And for the ones that are trying to be on the straight and narrow, grades aren't really all that important.

Sometimes I'd look at the brothers on campus and think...If we (my generation) are the leaders of 2morrow, we are in trouble.

But as far as getting more African American men enrolled, that effort definitely starts in the home. (that's always my answer for everything, but it's true) If they are only showed that the only ways to "make it" are to either rap, hustle, or be nba stars.... why would they even think about college? It's not a viable option.

But the one thing I don't understand, is why African American women seem to be managing to try to overcome their circumstances...and really go to school to make a better future for themselves...and the brothas just kinda fall victim to their circumstances...

Why? Three things.

1) Lack of tangible role models (key word TANGIBLE). 75% of young, black men have the milstone of growing up without a father in their household period, much less an educated, career minded, forward thinking, moral, ethical teacher who demands hard work and achievement above instant gratification, hustles, and fast, empty money. What young, black men who are on the campus of Old Dominion do not have is what most of their white counterparts have: a college educated, professional role model who was their for their first 18 yrs molding and preparing them for success in a society that is built for and by them. Black men are not only starting from behind in the race, they are running a marathon/steeplechase with 400 years of injured pysche while white men are jogging a leisurely 100 yd dash. Brothers need to see success and how it is accomplished on daily basis. It needs to be ingrained. It needs to be natural, it needs to be the norm. It should not be an aspiration, but rather a given. That is why white men have such a negative reaction to affirmative action. Its been their birthright to only have to compete with each other for the spoils of America. Competition for jobs, education and everything attendant with them is foreign and upsetting to them.

2) Role mdels. Who is a young black male more likely to see with the trappings of success? Money. power, self-worth, women, cars, jewelry, phat crib etc. Is it the bookworm, Poindexter who followed the rules, obeyed the teacher, did his homework, got A's and B's, didn't wear designer clothes, spend all his time rapping or getting girls pregnant or play ball good enough to be all-state without learning to conjugate a verb properly? This brother may go on to college never to be seen again in the hood. He may get a nice job after all that book learning, save up for 7 years, buy a house, meet a nice church girl and have two kids for his mini-van. Or would you most likely see hundreds of playa wannabe's braided, tattoed, believing that ignorance and "keepin' it real" are one in the same, manhood is measured in fighting, fornicating, and felony, by how many hoes you've macked, how many babies you've left fatherless. He may see how the "streets" view education as for the weak or feel that he has no place in structured America. I'm amazed at how often I meet college aged men who say that I am the first Black man that they have met who makes the kind of money that I make without being a hustler or drug dealer. Then again, the last 7 young men that I interviewed for intake had no relationship with their natural fathers at all.

3) The Media. What kind of Black Man are you most likely to see in any medium between the ages of 15 and 35? Whether its music, television, or athletics, it is the irresponsible, anti-social THUG who gets the most attention and adoration. Biggie Smalls had a bigger funeral than Martin Luther King. Tupac has a performing arts center named after hin in Atlanta. Alan Iverson is walking grafitti who constantly puts himself above his team, his coach, and relishes in his thug lifestyle, even at over $50mil a year, he is gonna keep it project real. Randy Moss in football. These people make all the money and endorsements and are always publicized. What incentive is their to be a moral, ethical, articulate gentleman? What is the payoff when you can be an uncouth lout and not only make millions, but be loved by millions whether you behave or not. Unless you read Black Enterprise, you would never see a legitimate Black businessman spotlighted in any medium. Shoot, I would aspire to be a buffoon on ComicView if that is all that I thought that I could achieve.

[AKA2D '91]

To add to your #1.

AA men in our elementary and secondary school settings are scarce. Years ago, there were strong male role models in our schools. If a person did not have a male figure at home, there was someone at school who served as that "figure."

Since teachers are not making money, AAs are not going into this area. When you go to( Fall) Commencement Exercises, count the number of Education graduates and then the number of AA male graduates. If you find men in the area, it's likely because they want to become a coach. At my school, there are 7 AA males, 4 of them are coaches. They are a different type, if you will. They do not have a strong presence. They do not seem to want to get involved. Even the 2 AA disciplinarians we have are not STRONG. They tend to "play" with the kids.

At one time, there was a mentor program at school (sponsored by a female), but it doesn't really exist anymore since she has retired.

Young men have to be nurtured and exposed before they enter college.


Not all times can it start at home. Maybe years ago, but not now. You have to see what's "at home". Sometimes, no one or nothing is there. Then, what are the options?

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by AKA2D '91
To add to your #1.

AA men in our elementary and secondary school settings are scarce. Years ago, there were strong male role models in our schools. If a person did not have a male figure at home, there was someone at school who served as that "figure."

Since teachers are not making money, AAs are not going into this area. When you go to( Fall) Commencement Exercises, count the number of Education graduates and then the number of AA male graduates. If you find men in the area, it's likely because they want to become a coach. At my school, there are 7 AA males, 4 of them are coaches. They are a different type, if you will. They do not have a strong presence. They do not seem to want to get involved. Even the 2 AA disciplinarians we have are not STRONG. They tend to "play" with the kids.

At one time, there was a mentor program at school (sponsored by a female), but it doesn't really exist anymore since she has retired.

Young men have to be nurtured and exposed before they enter college.


Not all times can it start at home. Maybe years ago, but not now. You have to see what's "at home". Sometimes, no one or nothing is there. Then, what are the options?

I agree to a certain extent. But 20 or 30 yrs ago, Black men were limited to education, but with greater access to the private sector, that changed.

I think that you still have to look closest to home to find the solution. Institutions are supposed to supplement what is taught at home, they are poor replacements and rarely can do more than they are built to do. We are in an awful bind.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by AKA2D '91

Not all times can it start at home. Maybe years ago, but not now. You have to see what's "at home". Sometimes, no one or nothing is there. Then, what are the options?

But see ....I think this the very heart of the problem. I think the wrong approach is to just say...well it can't start in the homes because of the way society is right now.

I think more accountability should be put on people so that IT CAN START IN THE HOME.

This is why I'm so against things like welfare that encourage the dismantling of the family. That's also why I think our so called "black leaders" should focus on the building the black family up instead of expanding welfare benefits. But who's going to do that....Rev. "baby daddy jesse?"

To sum, if we don't take the accountability back to the home, where it all starts, we're fighting a losing battle. Society cannot and will not raise our children. Society will either lock them up, diagnose them with ADD, or give them more money for living an immoral lifestyle (welfare)

[Honeykiss1974]

Having RESPONSIBLE parents and/or role models DO make a big difference (notice I said responsible, because there are a lot of "parents" out there that DO NOT need to be one. Just because mom and dad are at home, soe not mean that they are teaching their children jack!).

Unfortunately, some single mom's either do not know or are not surrounded by any type positive black male role models for their boys. And seeing how the media idolizes the black man ONLY as an athlete or as an entertainer, we can not expect them to take the moral highroad.

What advice would you give to a person in said situation who is wanting to expose her son to a positive black role model? Just curious to see the responses.


And for the record, just because someone using welfare benefits (which includes federal student loans, pell grants, etc.), do not automatically assume that they are living an IMMORAL lifestyle. Please check out http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/stats/13grants.htm
for accurate information. This site is maintained by the US Department of Health and Human Services and contains raw data. Hopefully it will help dispel some of the myths/stereotypes out there.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
Having RESPONSIBLE parents and/or role models DO make a big difference (notice I said responsible, because there are a lot of "parents" out there that DO NOT need to be one. Just because mom and dad are at home, soe not mean that they are teaching their children jack!).

Unfortunately, some single mom's either do not know or are not surrounded by any type positive black male role models for their boys. And seeing how the media idolizes the black man ONLY as an athlete or as an entertainer, we can not expect them to take the moral highroad.

What advice would you give to a person in said situation who is wanting to expose her son to a positive black role model? Just curious to see the responses.


And for the record, just because someone using welfare benefits (which includes federal student loans, pell grants, etc.), do not automatically assume that they are living an IMMORAL lifestyle. Please check out http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/stats/13grants.htm
for accurate information. This site is maintained by the US Department of Health and Human Services and contains raw data. Hopefully it will help dispel some of the myths/stereotypes out there.

Well of course, when a man/woman makes the choice to have a child out of wedlock, there are going to be consequences. Consequences are an absentee father, likely living near the poverty line because of only one income, and not being able to provide adequate parental guidance.

I know many women that overcome their circumstances by taking on the role of a maternal and paternal figure. I think if a person finds themselves in this situation, they need to accept that they are in the situation because they put themselve there, and understand that they MUST work twice as hard to raise their children in a positive environment with moral parental guidance. Meaning, working two jobs if necessary to make sure their children go to a good school, try to live in a neighborhood where the crime rate is low, make sure their children are involved with groups such as Big Brothers/Big Sisters, and the many other positive groups that reach out to disadvantaged children. The parent also has to make sure they know who their children are hanging out with and where they're hanging out. I think the parent also has to accept that they have to put some of their needs on hold (i.e. clubbing, dating, etc) for the child. Having all types of different men/women around your child OR always putting your kids off on grandma so you can go clubbin is not responsible parenting IMO

These things name a few suggestions I would have to someone in the hypothetical situation you mentioned. Most of what I said involves good parenting skills and just taking an active role in your children's life.

And although this is not the topic of the thread......
Thank you for the link, but I still feel that welfare DOES aid immoral lifestyles. Any program that continually gives $$ to someone for being irresponsible... (having 5 children by 5 different people with no way to support them...)is aiding immorality. ANd also, everybody's morals are different.

And for those who are doing right by the system, i.e. to get back on their feet....that's good for them, but I'm talking about the large numbers of people that abuse the system and use the system as a crutch.

ANd for the record, if student loans are welfare, when does the grace period end before WELFARE RECIPIENTS have to start paying their money back? Just curious, because mine is 6 months for my student LOANS.

[DoggyStyle82]

Ladies, thanks for the dialog!

Since the horse is already out of the barn, you are not going to get 75%of young Black men back into a house with a responsible father. So instead of anti-welfare diatribes, what is the Black community to do?

As a whole, I am pessimistic. We have let things go too far for too long. We have compromised our morals at the altar of liberalism and paternalism. We have abdicated control of our daily lives to a system that does not honor the traditions of the once strong Black family. A Black man sees no need for his presence in a home. In essence, he sees himself as quite disposable. That is why failure and fatalism is such a big part of our culture. Young girls see that it is inevitable that they will end up pregnant and boys see incarceration as a rite of passage.

I'm not so sure that a flood this huge can be stemmed. In the name of more government handouts, we let control of our lives and communities slip into the hands of poverty pimps and politicians, now we can't do anything for ourselves. We can't even raise our own children, let alone educate them. I hate when the self-righteous finger pointers say "what good are fraternities, what are you doing for the community?" Our manpower and resources are stretched thin. We simply have too many people that need help. We are overwhelmed and we have been partners in our own decimation.

[Kimmie1913]

Doggystyle,

I absolutely agree with your "horse is out of the barn” assessment. While I believe that the only way to make a widespread, lasting change in this area is for the black community to move back to a mentality of personal responsibility and strong family structures, that does not change the reality of all of the children whose families have already missed that boat.

I think there is a selfish, self preserving motive for society to take an interest in changing the lives of the potentially lost souls that are out there now. If you keep the things that create a welfare dependent person in play but remove the welfare system, the notion that they will suddenly "do the right thing" because the aid is gone is absurd. Certain societal ills will be exacerbated as some portion of the populous falls into a big black hole. Finding a way to improve this situation rather than dropping these children by the way side may save us all a certain amount of grief later.

What should be done? I think there need to be efforts to encourage some accountability for parents in the raising of children. I think there need to be greater resources dedicated to parent education. If you want to break the cycle of government dependence, you need to be willing to invest more up front to save more later. Even if we convinced people to take a better stance going forward, attention still must be given those children who are already here in struggling families. Investments in education must be made for the sake of all children and especially those in urban and rural settings. A strong education system benefits the entire country.

(On a side note, I always find it interesting when people scream about people relying on the government the lines that get drawn. Is it only those who take afds that are wrong? Those on food stamps? Section 8? Student loans are still government subsidies, despite the fact we pay them back. Corporations take government welfare everyday to bail them out. But people can rationalize that away in a favorable way so that may be okay. If it is all about self reliance and only getting things you have earned and worked for, there should be no government subsidized anything and people should only attend schools they can afford or getting private loans for, right? On some level it is splitting hairs to me. )

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
Ladies, thanks for the dialog!

Since the horse is already out of the barn, you are not going to get 75%of young Black men back into a house with a responsible father. So instead of anti-welfare diatribes, what is the Black community to do?

As a whole, I am pessimistic. We have let things go too far for too long. We have compromised our morals at the altar of liberalism and paternalism. We have abdicated control of our daily lives to a system that does not honor the traditions of the once strong Black family. A Black man sees no need for his presence in a home. In essence, he sees himself as quite disposable. That is why failure and fatalism is such a big part of our culture. Young girls see that it is inevitable that they will end up pregnant and boys see incarceration as a rite of passage.

I'm not so sure that a flood this huge can be stemmed. In the name of more government handouts, we let control of our lives and communities slip into the hands of poverty pimps and politicians, now we can't do anything for ourselves. We can't even raise our own children, let alone educate them. I hate when the self-righteous finger pointers say "what good are fraternities, what are you doing for the community?" Our manpower and resources are stretched thin. We simply have too many people that need help. We are overwhelmed and we have been partners in our own decimation.

My brotha, My brotha.....u can be so eloquent sometimes

I agree with you, and I am pessimistic as well....but I think the situation can be turned around ...... but only if WE want it to be. Our community could take back our families, our streets, etc. but it just seems to me, that the ones that want to do it, are so few in number. It seems like my generation (I'm 24) is all about if it feels good, then do it. It's like we're in a downward spiral. That's why I point the finger at our leadership, and those who have made it. They in my opinion hold a tremendous amount of power and could really make a difference in the right way......if they wanted to.

But I guess this is all wishful thinking....

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6


Well of course, when a man/woman makes the choice to have a child out of wedlock, there are going to be consequences. Consequences are an absentee father, likely living near the poverty line because of only one income, and not being able to provide adequate parental guidance.

I know many women that overcome their circumstances by taking on the role of a maternal and paternal figure. I think if a person finds themselves in this situation, they need to accept that they are in the situation because they put themselve there, and understand that they MUST work twice as hard to raise their children in a positive environment with moral parental guidance. Meaning, working two jobs if necessary to make sure their children go to a good school, try to live in a neighborhood where the crime rate is low, make sure their children are involved with groups such as Big Brothers/Big Sisters, and the many other positive groups that reach out to disadvantaged children. The parent also has to make sure they know who their children are hanging out with and where they're hanging out. I think the parent also has to accept that they have to put some of their needs on hold (i.e. clubbing, dating, etc) for the child. Having all types of different men/women around your child OR always putting your kids off on grandma so you can go clubbin is not responsible parenting IMO

These things name a few suggestions I would have to someone in the hypothetical situation you mentioned. Most of what I said involves good parenting skills and just taking an active role in your children's life.

And although this is not the topic of the thread......
Thank you for the link, but I still feel that welfare DOES aid immoral lifestyles. Any program that continually gives $$ to someone for being irresponsible... (having 5 children by 5 different people with no way to support them...)is aiding immorality. ANd also, everybody's morals are different.

And for those who are doing right by the system, i.e. to get back on their feet....that's good for them, but I'm talking about the large numbers of people that abuse the system and use the system as a crutch.

ANd for the record, if student loans are welfare, when does the grace period end before WELFARE RECIPIENTS have to start paying their money back? Just curious, because mine is 6 months for my student LOANS.

Well, when a father is absent, if the government catches up to him, he will be ordered to repay the money paid out to supprt his children through TANF. They do not routinely sek repayment in other circumstances, to my knowledge.

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6


My brotha, My brotha.....u can be so eloquent sometimes

I agree with you, and I am pessimistic as well....but I think the situation can be turned around ...... but only if WE want it to be. Our community could take back our families, our streets, etc. but it just seems to me, that the ones that want to do it, are so few in number. It seems like my generation (I'm 24) is all about if it feels good, then do it. It's like we're in a downward spiral. That's why I point the finger at our leadership, and those who have made it. They in my opinion hold a tremendous amount of power and could really make a difference in the right way......if they wanted to.

But I guess this is all wishful thinking....

I do agree with you on that. Our "leadership" is abysmal. Our successful role models are always quick to dispel any responsibility for those that come behind them. People who have some influence over how our young people think are unwilling to use their power for good instead of evil. (You know what I mean) It is disheartening and it does make the job that much more challenging for those of us who are successful and willing to go back to our communities and work and stand with them and try to make a difference.

I think that the biggest challenge for people who have "made it" is effectively working with people they are trying to help make it. Living and working in an urban environment like Baltimore, this is often a hurdle. In order to be effective you have to connect with people on some level. There have been a lot of pronouncements about the morals of this population. Have you found those sentiments to be a hindrance as you work to make a difference? I tend to find moralizing to be a great way to alienate your audience. Chapters here that have a nose in the air, "I made it out, why didn’t you attitude?", do far less community service and are less effective with it.