thoughts & white supremacists?

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

i was just in here posting on another thread and i thought that this would be an interesting place to ask a question.

the other day i was watching an America Undercover on HBO entitled "Army of God" (something like that) it talked about this radical group of people who believe in "killing abortion doctors in an effort to save the babies"...in essence killing to preserve life...interesting oxymoron. in any case, one of the "heroes" of this group is a man who is also loved by white supremacists. i belive his name is phillip randolph *but don't quote me* he is the man who is accused of bombing abortion clinics as well as a gay bar and at the 1996 atlanta Olympics.

my question is...

i have seen many people on here give very negative, hateful, sickening responses in references to homosexuals. the "feeling" that is injected into some peoples words have been almost murderous. as we know words may often wound deeper than any bullet. in any case, does it ever cross ones mind when they write such hate speech as a black person against a homosexual. that these are the exact words, many times that a white supremacist would say?

understand that of course you are welcomed by white supremacists to abuse kill or maime homosexuals...but when they are all gone...you will be next.

i say this because its quite fascinating how an oppressed group will oppress another group.

but its not just homosexuals that we mimic the rhetoric of white supremacists when oppressing. we have verbal abuses for almost every other ethnic group, religious group, and one another. think about it...theres no need for white supremacists to call us niggers...we do it to ourselves.

i know many of you might use the bible to justify your hatred of homosexuals. and i can point you to some sites where white supremacists use the bible to show why we as black people and people of color are meant to be slaves or worse...dead.

i am posting this as an intellectual conversation...lets think about this topic and find some reasons why we continue the oppression of other groups.

peace,
lastpoet

[This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited April 08, 2001).]

[NUPE4LIFE]

This a very good topic indeed. It's one of the most thought provoking topics I've seen here in awhile.

I will venture and say that many people feel as though homosexuality is a chosen thing, that's why people don't feel bad about hate speech towards them. Me personally, I'm indifferent about homosexuals. They neither threaten or enhance my life. I don't see a reason to discriminate against them so I don't. I do think that it's foolish for people to discriminate against them on the basis of their sexual orientation. Even if you believe that homosexuality is a sin, you shouldn't hate. After all, Jesus never preached hate. While I don't advocate the hatred and the discrimination of gays, we must all be real and know that we have all done things of a predjucial and bias nature. Let's not preach it, cause it's easier said than done. And I hope that I answered your question. If not, the thesis of my post is that there is no justification for hatred of any kind. God is Love, and once we sanctified people stop using the Bible as a tool for hatred, the world will be a better place. It starts with us who know Christ!


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KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC.
SPR 97
XI LAMBDA

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

thanks nupe4life for your response! i am happy to see that someone is interested.

but your response...made me think of another question. one that was actually asked in my Civil Rights Movement History class. you said that you are indifferent to homosexuality. understandable...if you do not know anyone who is homosexual. but the question comes in if one is not actively anti-racist/homophobia/sexist etc. isn't the silence just as deadly...doesn't the silence mean compliance to the evils that are perpetrated against individuals? i hope you are following me.

in my civil rights movement class we were asked if one is not actively anti-racist...which means correcting people when they come out the side of their necks with b.s. then aren't you just showing them...with your silence...that you are "okay" with whatever they say or do? feel me?

just another piece of the puzzle to think about.

peace,
lastpoet

[serenity_24]

Originally posted by NUPE4LIFE:
After all, Jesus never preached hate.

You are absolutely right. Before anyone picks up the bible to justify any form of hatred, they need to think of one of the first and greatest commandments; "love thy neighbor as thyself". And because there weren't a bunch of clauses attached to that commandment, it means to love them unconditionally...gay, straight, bi, high, crazy, drunk, white, black, or afflicted and bow-legged with one eye in the back.

Originally posted by lastpoetnsite:
If one is not actively anti-racist...which means correcting people when they come out the side of their necks with b.s. then aren't you just showing them...with your silence...that you are "okay" with whatever they say or do? feel me?

Yes, I feel you. Again you are absolutely right. By being silent you are communicating to the offenders that they are correct.

However, on that same token, for a christian to just sit idly by and say nothing about homosexuality would be the same as condoning the act. Nevertheless, I feel there is an appropriate way of going about it without the use of hate.

But is it really worth the time; trying to correct everything about everybody else? We're only on this earth for a short time. We all know it's not forever. So why not do the things that will reserve you a spot in heaven and stop worring about these crazies on earth?

[AlphaChiGirl]

It's always intrigued me that people will rail against homosexuality (using the Bible as a reference), but be okay with heterosexual relations before marriage (which is admonished more than homosexual relations). I'm not saying that anyone's doing that, but I was talking with my mother about it today, and the racist/heterosexist thread just made me want to reply.

Has anyone else noticed that?

[bigBERG]

I have no feelings about homosexuality. I do, however, believe that they are entitled to live their lives without being ridiculed, mocked, and belittled. I hear the pain in the voices of my mother, father, and grandmother as they speak to me about how the south used be. When they tell me about the horrors of segregation, oppression, and blatant racism. For people disecting the bible to use it as a weapon, the bible is the word of God. To pick and choose which parts suit your fancy is to essentially rearrange the words of God to serve man.

To address homophobia:
Speaking for where I grew up, a gay black man was something you didn't see. The men who were fixtures in households, and playgrounds fit into one or two categories: classic hunter gatherer or mandingo. The hunter gatherer works 15 hours a day makes an honest living and provides for his wife and children. The mandingo is an individual of vaunted sexual expertise and talents. No man dared veer away from that because of the certain wrath that would have followed.

As for verbal abuses, every race has them. Every race has individuals within the race that are willing to use them.

All these problems affect our race, and I don't mean skin color. These problems affect the human race and hopefully through honest and meaningful dialogue we can march hand in hand to the utopia of our dreams.

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Many are called, many are chosen, but only a few are PHROZEN!

[serenity_24]

Originally posted by AlphaChiGirl:
It's always intrigued me that people will rail against homosexuality (using the Bible as a reference), but be okay with heterosexual relations before marriage (which is admonished more than homosexual relations).

So True!!!

Girl, that was almost a deep thought by Jack Handy if it wasn't so real.

[sunnydays96]

Originally posted by bigBERG:
the bible is the word of God. To pick and choose which parts suit your fancy is to essentially rearrange the words of God to serve man.

Which to me is the biggest sin of all.

[HopefulJD]

HI there

Just thought I'd voice another opinion. While I do not consider myself homophobic, nor do I take issue with most homosexuals (I dont understand why one can't be a man- sans pseudo female manerisms and the everpopular lisp and love a man). If you have decided to involve yourself in that type of relationship, that is your business, but i don't like the bufoonery that "sometimes" goes along with that lifestyle. But that is just my opinion, I dont condemn the person, just the behavior.

I do , however, take issue with people who try to make a serious comparison between our issues and struggles as a people and those of the average homosexaul, particularly the "mainstream American society" homosexual
It is a slap in the face of our ancestors.

[1 Woman of Virtue]

Howdy forum! It's been a while but I'm back! I thought I'd share something a professor at one of the Law Schools I've been visiting said in class. He was trying to show the importance of not just hearing the opposing side's views, but UNDERSTANDING THEM from that person's point of view:
"...I'm a Catholic Black man, who happens to actively support gay rights. Now when I was talking to a priest, who for obvious reasons does NOT support gay rights, it was clear that the usual arguments as to whether or not "homosexuality" is a choice or not, were not going to work. Neither was a discussion on if being gay was condemned by God--I already knew what he thought and he already knew what I thought. So some new element had to be entered into the discussion here.
I proceeded to pose the following questions to him: Now you believe that accepting Jesus is one of the greatest choices one can make, right? In fact if one were to not choose Jesus, he/she would be eternally damned, and well that sounds like a pretty big choice to me. Anyway, history has taught us that using violence to force one to choose Jesus is the most ineffective, if not the most ridiculous method to use in evangelising. Instead you know show love to thy neighbor, and help your fellow-man, in a hope that by loving your neighbor as yourself, you will win them to Christ, right? Well now when you, as a man who chooses to love your neighbor as yourself, make a decision to support gays in their fight against discrimination, aren't you in fact continuing to love your neighbor as yourself? And if you don't support them, aren't you acting contrary to the wisdom of Jesus?"
Saying all of that to say this: I am a Christian woman. And BECAUSE of that, I don't care who you are or what you do, I will show you love, not because God loves YOU just as much as He loves ME, but because God loves ME just as much as He loves YOU.
Do I think the act of homosexuality is a sin? Yes. And that may be something that I and someone who does not, may never reconcile--I'm ok w/ that. But, I will not stand for anyone being discriminated against. Just some (long-winded ) thoughts on the matter.

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

wow...i have enjoyed and been intrigued by the responses that i have seen here. i would though like to reel us back to the topic.

granted...from reading your posts many of you believe that homosexuality *the sexual act of it* is a "sin". you are entitled to believe that. we all have different beliefs on what is right or wrong.

i think what intrigues me about those comments are the fact that...you may believe that homosexuality is a "sin"...but when someone says something homophobic...whether "innocent" or extreme do you correct the person? because if you are a christian you would know that any type of hate is debilitating (sp?).

let me give you some examples:

innocent homophobic comment: "why do they have to show that they are gay...why can't they keep that at home?" to which i reply...why do you have to show that you are str8...why can't you keep that at home?

extreme homophobic comment: "(explitive) faggots and dykes are going to hell. if one of them hits on me i'll whip their a**!" to which i ask them do they realize that there are people who believe that they should be killed? and hand them some websites where they can see their death enacted.

does knowing that your thoughts and views are shared by people who would wish to do you harm cause you any pause for concern? it certainly has caused me some concern. knowing that i am on more than one list to be murdered by white supremacists, me being bi-racial and gay, has caused me to start thinking about my own predjudices.

we talk often of our christianity...if jesus was alive today...would he be a gay rights activist? *i did not say that he would be gay* would he be a womans rights activist? would he fight for the civil rights of all people of color? would he embrace any cause that asked for oppression to stop? i believe that he would. because my understanding from biblical text is that regardless of everything that he said...within his word was the addage..."love your neighbor as yourself"

did you know that there are some "christian websites" that actually say that God does not preach love....but vengence?

bringing us again back to the topic...if our thoughts, words, and sometimes deeds about any group are similar to those who would cause us harm because of our skin color or ethnicity...then what does that say about us?

should we continue to think and act the way that we do...but complain about the Klan parading in our neighborhoods...when quick as a flash we would be the first to turn our back on a gay friend/sorority sister/frat brother/relative etc. does that make us any better? i would say no.

lets think about this topic more in a way of how we could stop causing what these groups want...disention(sp?) in the ranks. because as long as we are seperate...we will get nothing done.

peace,
lastpoet

[This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited April 09, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited April 09, 2001).]

[serenity_24]

Originally posted by lastpoetnsite:
I think what intrigues me about those comments are the fact that...you may believe that homosexuality is a "sin"...but when someone says something homophobic...whether "innocent" or extreme do you correct the person? because if you are a christian you would know that any type of hate is debilitating (sp?).

I don't know about everybody else, but I get your point. You have the power to stop hate by simply telling your friend he is out of line when he makes a hateful comment about something.

And as I stated before, you cannot be an advocate of certain types of hate and not expect to be recipricated. What goes around comes around, but if we stopped sending it (hate) around, there would be nothing to come back to bite us in our own butts.

Originally posted by lastpoetnsite:
we talk often of our christianity...if jesus was alive today...would he be a gay rights activist? *i did not say that he would be gay* would he be a womans rights activist? would he fight for the civil rights of all people of color? would he embrace any cause that asked for oppression to stop? i believe that he would. because my understanding from biblical text is that regardless of everything that he said...within his word was the addage..."love your neighbor as yourself"

While I understand the addage, I don't agree with the interpretation.

When Jesus was on earth he was not an advocate for anything but the word of God. It was through his teaching of the word of God that he GAINED an audience. He did not seek an audience. I know that he was a fisher of men, but fishermen use hooks and bait, sit around and wait, and the fish come to them. It was because of the miracles (Bait) that most people came to even see Jesus. He didn't walk up on people and say "hey, what you're doing is wrong" (advocate), He used oppourtunities to witness to people, never saying what they were doing was wrong. If anything he was usually asking..."would it be wrong of ME?". In fact, he was minding his own buisness when he forgave that man of his sins on a sabboth, when one of the preist started that "who does he think he is" gossip. Jesus used that opportunity to teach them and gain even more believers by restoring his ability to walk. He only talked to those who had ears to hear. Those that didn't....oh well. He never forced an issue. When the man didn't want to give up his money and follow him (after HE CAME to Jesus asking what could he do to be a deciple), he let it go and used that opportunity to show the rest of the followers how hard it would be for a rich man to get into heaven.

So, if what I've said is true, we, as christians, do not have to advocate for gay rights or any other rights for that matter. If we choose to do so, then that is something that concerns the world and not God and is neither right nor wrong from a christian (christ-like) standpoint. By the same token, we don't need to go up to a gay person and tell them, hey man what you're doing is wrong. All we have to do is wait for an oppourtunity. When the subject comes up when you're with someone you know on a personal level or if someone comes to you as they have in this forum then it is your duty to witness (state the word of God) to them in a sincere manner, void of hatered. If someone says something around you that you know to be offensive to the word of God, then, by all means, say something (be careful when trying this on starngers). If you know the word, you will have no problems knowing when to speak up and when to let it go.

[This message has been edited by serenity_24 (edited April 09, 2001).]

[Discogoddess]

*WARNING*
A BIT LONG

I believe that all of God's children are deserving of respect, love and equality. And since we are all children and not parents, we have no right to say who should be first and who should be last, who gets reward and who gets punishment. We can only love each other, do what we believe is right (without having to broadcast our disapproval of others who aren't doing as we think is right) and hope that our Creator is pleased with the way we demonstrated our faith.

I disagree with my fellow humans who shun homosexuality as a choice or lifestyle. I cannot believe that the majority of gay/lesbian folks would consciously make a choice to lead such a difficult life. I also don't believe that people can "turn that way" or be "recruited" by a childhood and/or abusive experience. I also don't believe that God would purposely create people who are gay with the thought of sending them to hell for expressing the sexuality HE gave them. I don't know His mind on this; I only know a FEW passages of the Bible, written by men, that speak of God's condemnation. This same book also speaks of His grace, mercy and love, so I can't make a definitive ruling. Nor is it my place to do so.

I also disagree with the comment about effeminate gay men, made by another poster. I CANNOT STAND the ghettoness of MANY, MANY of my family, neighbors and others, but I don't have the right to dictate when and where people can express themselves, simply because it irritates, embarrasses or offends me. Sexual expression and ghettoness ARE two different things, I know, but I compared them as an example.

I do not tolerate racist, homophobic or sexist talk/action in my midst. I truly believe that when you allow that, you need to understand that you are a silent co-conspirator in the hate that's being set forth in such talk/actions. I can't remember the name of the poem, and I'm not sure, but I think it was Eli Weisel (really not sure though) who wrote something to the effect that "when they came for the Jews, I said nothing; when they came for the Catholics, I said nothing....when they came for me, there was no one to cry out..." This is just a paraphrase, but I firmly believe if you allow nastiness toward someone else to take place in your midst, rest assured that nastiness about you (whether personally, as a woman/man, black person, etc.) is taking place when you are not present.

[Little32]

This is a great topic. I really gave this some though, because I am at times guilty of not being as politically correct as I could be.
Oddly enough, I was thinking about a Boy Meets World episode (I love that show). And Cory, for those of you who know the show, calls his friend Shawn a wop. Of course Shawn gets upset, but no one else in the class does. Cory goes on to say that when someone calls someone else a name, it is not cool that just that person gets upset. If someone makes derogatory statements about a group, it is not cool that just that group gets upset, because that is what allows that kind of thought to propogate. We have to all get upset and all stop it.
HOmosexuality is an individual choice. I neiher judge nor condone it, for its not my place. But people should be free to live their lives as they see fit with out fear of perscution, either physically or verbally.
Thanks lastpoetnsite for giving me something to think about.

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

again i would like to thank everyone for their well thought out responses. i appreciate everyone giving their opinions on the topic.

but although i have remarks for everyone i'd just like to address doggystyle82 for a moment.

my brotha i see that you are strong in your religious conviction which i am very impressed by. but i think that you may have viewed my posts and the original question or comment that started this thread as trying to force my views on others.

that was not my intention.

before i begin i would ask that you be just as respectful to me and the others posting...those you agree with and those you don't...because i will be respectful to you. not because i feel that i have to...but when discussing intellectual topics such as these...i find it is much easer to be open to others thoughts and beliefs. and debate such issues without accusatory tones to our writing. when we write in anger...those are the quickest ways to get a thread closed. i am hoping that we can be civil.

in any case, i am not out to change how you think. i am in no way asking you or anyone else to love homosexuality, abortion, sexism, racism etc. that is not my intention. but in taking my Civil Rights Movement class, seeing that America Undercover, and seeing hate interacted on my campus and in my own life. i began to put two and two together. what i have noticed is that hate is ciclical (sp?). each ism and phobia is intertwined with one another.

when a white person for instance spits "nigger" at a black person...we immediately get up in arms. but if that black person spits "faggot" at a gay person...it is almost like that is acceptable.

my question has been all along...how does one oppressed group justify their oppressive actions against another oppressed group?

the use of the bible *and i do not say that i am a scholar by any means* has been used to justify all types of oppression. i am sure we can agree on that. it has been used to justify slavery, sexism, racism, elitism, classism, all holocausts, etc. so are those uses of the bible "bad" but when used to oppress homosexuals then that means its okay? i don't understand that kind of thinking.

but going back to the original thought process. i posted this topic because of the America Undercover that I had been watching.

my question again...bringing us again back to the topic...was basically... if our thoughts, words, and sometimes deeds about any group are similar to those who would cause us harm because of our skin color or ethnicity...then what does that say about us?

we have gotten onto the homosexuality topic a little more than i hoped because this topic is much bigger than our acceptance or hatred of homosexuals. this is also about how we view other people of color, women who have abortions, sexism, classism, racism etc.

how do we justify our anger with a group who would just as soon have us killed for our color...when we have similar beliefs about other groups of people.

i also did a search in a couple of forums about homosexuality. and i can say that some of the things that i read were disturbing, hurtful, and sad. but those were my feelings from someone elses opinion...of which i respect.

i understand that you my brotha are a strict conservative christian who has great love of his religion and i respect that. i did find it unsettling that such things as bestiality, pedophillia, and necrophillia were mentioned in the same context as homosexuality. but i recognize that these are on the same level in your opinion...which i respect but highly disagree with.

i have read many of your posts in the past and i can tell that you are on fire for your beliefs. but again i ask as i respect you...i would hope you would respect me and the others on this thread and use your vast knowledge and no-nonsense style to impart wisdom like honey and not like vinegar.

i would like to ask again...to everyone that we think about this in a broader sense. true homophobia is a topic of discussion in how one group oppresses another but there is a broader scope to this topic.

i have so much more to say but i will sit back and read your opinions again. thank you for the wonderful intellectual discussion...and this goes to those i agree with and those that i don't.

peace,
lastpoet