Can we stop the perpetration of ghetto imagery

[Steeltrap]

Good morning all:

I'd like to pose a discussion scenario.

In view of the imbroglio surrounding Ghettopoly and the continual degrading, insulting images of African Americans in the mainstream media, do you believe it is correct for an organization such as a graduate chapter of an NPHC group, which has a mission to serve and uplift people (IMO), to honor a recording artist whose art perpetrates the pimp/prostitute/"ghetto" aesthetic?

Do you feel that this creates an impression that we condone such behavior? Do you feel that it may create an environment where "others" feel free to do isht like Ghettopoly, "ghetto fab" parties and the like?

Discuss, please.

(Soror-Moderators, if you feel this is inappropriate for the forum, please delete this or combine it with an existing topic.)

[TonyB06]

Originally posted by Steeltrap
Good morning all:

I'd like to pose a discussion scenario.

In view of the imbroglio surrounding Ghettopoly and the continual degrading, insulting images of African Americans in the mainstream media, do you believe it is correct for an organization such as a graduate chapter of an NPHC group, which has a mission to serve and uplift people (IMO), to honor a recording artist whose art perpetrates the pimp/prostitute/"ghetto" aesthetic?

Do you feel that this creates an impression that we condone such behavior? Do you feel that it may create an environment where "others" feel free to do isht like Ghettopoly, "ghetto fab" parties and the like?

Discuss, please.
(Soror-Moderators, if you feel this is inappropriate for the forum, please delete this or combine it with an existing topic.)

Steeltrap,

I feel you on this (and props to you for the word-of-the day "imbroglio" )

I think you're on point regarding the NPHC honor. (and I don't know who did it so no flames, please). If we're going to set a new standard, who better --with the exception of the church -- to lead it than us, the supposed intellectual leaders of our community?

But it is a slippery slope. Because after we get done speechifying, we allow our kids to hear the music, and wear the saggy clothes, etc., and we call it their "self-expression." So really no one's hands are clean on this.

And yeah, I agree that when those in other communities see us honoring this type of expression, we look a tad foolish when we get on them for what they try to do.

[lovelyivy84]

Good points Tony!

I do not think it's appropriate, to be honest. While I applaud the ingenuity and savvy it took for entertainers to get to that 'next' level, I can't support it when I see that they present the worst images of our community to the masses.

I mean, on some level I think that we are way too sanctimonious about some of these issues- we think that NO one should EVER say ANYTHING bad about us but US while ignoring that the images they see are being sold by the wealthiest of us (Bob Johnson I am looking at you). But at the same time, I don't see that we should applaud the people who are exploiting our community heritage and values.

[Steeltrap]

Originally posted by TonyB06
Steeltrap,

I feel you on this (and props to you for the word-of-the day "imbroglio" )

I think you're on point regarding the NPHC honor. (and I don't know who did it so no flames, please). If we're going to set a new standard, who better --with the exception of the church -- to lead it than us, the supposed intellectual leaders of our community?

But it is a slippery slope. Because after we get done speechifying, we allow our kids to hear the music, and wear the saggy clothes, etc., and we call it their "self-expression." So really no one's hands are clean on this.

And yeah, I agree that when those in other communities see us honoring this type of expression, we look a tad foolish when we get on them for what they try to do.

Very thoughtful points, Tony. It does get into a slippery slope, particularly if those of us who are parents (I'm not one) can pontificate and turn around and let our kids continue to watch the booty videos, buy the baggy gear, etc.

[ClassyLady]

Very interesting question Steeltrap!!!

I do have a problem with organizations that have sworn to uplift the race promoting such negative stereotypes of us. In the college atmosphere, I have witnessed several incidences of organizations hosting a seminar or panel discussion on the enlightenment or upliftment of the race while throwing a party that same night where only music promoting negative stereotypes is played. It comes across, to me, as speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

The solution to this problem is not going to come easily, for several reasons. For one, the negative stereotypes of our people are being promoted and sold to our people. Often in discussions of this topic, the biggest concern voiced is that White people will see these images and assume that all African Americans behave and speak in the same manner. What is more important to me is that these images are being sold to young African Americans living comfortably. Many of our young people begin to think that the only way to be truly black is to have to struggle to survive, sell drugs, work as a stripper, or something else that they heard on the radio or saw in a video.

Next, we have to deal with the problems of censorship. Many people, including members of the organizations in question, are going to have problem with a national mandate or some other directive indicating what artists are acceptable and those that are not. Personally, I feel that Lil Jon and the Ying Yang twins promote negative stereotypes. There are plenty of people who vehemently object to banning this kind of music at a party or social gathering.

Until, we can lift the consciousness of our people as a whole, I think we will encounter more problems than solutions.

[TonyB06]

Another point to consider. I talked recently with a friend of mine on the role/responsibility of our people in business. Surely we all have to turn a profit, and effectively manage the bottom line to stay in business.

But after you reach a certain point, does not say a Bob Johnson, when taking into account the severity of the problems in "our"community," and realizing the image/impact of his product on Black youth, owe it to the point of sacrificing perhaps the profit of one or two less booty-shaking videos for the overall betterment of our village?

Sure, the easy and obvious answer is that B. Johnson should grab as much cheddar as the next guy -- but look past the obvious. If you're the black Bill Gates, and you made your empire on the support of your community, do you have any more responsibility to us than a white businessman might have to the majority community?

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Steeltrap
Good morning all:

I'd like to pose a discussion scenario.

In view of the imbroglio surrounding Ghettopoly and the continual degrading, insulting images of African Americans in the mainstream media, do you believe it is correct for an organization such as a graduate chapter of an NPHC group, which has a mission to serve and uplift people (IMO), to honor a recording artist whose art perpetrates the pimp/prostitute/"ghetto" aesthetic?

Do you feel that this creates an impression that we condone such behavior? Do you feel that it may create an environment where "others" feel free to do isht like Ghettopoly, "ghetto fab" parties and the like?

Discuss, please.

(Soror-Moderators, if you feel this is inappropriate for the forum, please delete this or combine it with an existing topic.)

Great question Steeltrap!

I believe that we (as in AfAm) have created an environment of acceptance when it comes to the images of "ghetto life" (bling, bling, smokin' blunts, rim, etc.) and the glamourtization(sp) of such life. Granted, that is the reality of some of us, but not all or even the majority of AfAm today.

Sadly, because "ghetto fab" in ingrained into the minds of many people, when something postive that is based on the other end of the "AfAm life spectrum", it is quickly seen as boring, square, "white" , or us "not keeping it real".

To be honest though, I don't think the majority of our youth today even believes that this a problem (the image of being "ghetto fab"). A lot of the youth today don't have a problem with their non-black friends using the word n***a around them or even cares to know about the civil rights movement and how the struggle continues today.

[nachural]

Have yall heard about the 'flava dolls'? They are made by barbie... the white barbie has braids, the black barbie has long blonde hair , and the black ken is named P-Bo

Matel sure knows how to make that money mayne

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by nachural
the black ken is named P-Bo

P-Bo? Dag, they might as well have called him Pookie! 3 year old kids name their dog P-Bo.

[Kimmie1913]

Originally posted by nachural
Have yall heard about the 'flava dolls'? They are made by barbie... the white barbie has braids, the black barbie has long blonde hair , and the black ken is named P-Bo

Matel sure knows how to make that money mayne

In an article I just peeed about them from Newsweek, they were described as all "bling-bling" and "Baby's got back" and seem to be some sort of attmept at a hip hop doll.

From Mattel.com
Mattel Asks Girls “What’s Your Flava?” in an All-New Line of Fashion Dolls

Flava, according to “Hip Hoptionary: The Dictionary of Hip Hop Terminology” by Alonzo Westbrook, means personal flavor or style. With
the introduction of Flavas (pronounced FLAY-vuhz), the first reality-based fashion doll brand that celebrates today’s teen culture through authentic style, attitude and values Mattel has created a hot hip-hop themed line that allows girls to express their own personal flava.

Flavas embraces the highly-popular hip-hop trend with breakthrough concepts never seen before in the older girl toy market. Flavas also represents several other firsts in the doll aisle. Just like real teens, Flavas reflects true individuality through a variety of sizes, face sculpts and styles unique to each character within the line.

Guaranteeing the Flavas crew maintains its distinct identity, each character has an individual face sculpt, ensuring that all six Flavas crew members reflect the look of real teens while differentiating each character from the other. The members of the Flavas crew are also all different heights, ranging from 10 to 11½ inches. The dolls feature more articulation than other fashion dolls: 10 points of articulation to allow for a variety of poses and a creative way for girls to reflect more “attitude” through the dolls.

Reflecting how today’s teens change their looks based on their personality and mood of the moment, Flavas will also feature multiple looks of the same character in every product wave. Each Flavas crewmember will have two very different-looking dolls at launch, with different fashions, hairstyles, make-up and even eye color. As an example, one Happy D doll will showcase a sporty look, while a second will feature Happy D’s street style – each with unique fashions, hair accessories, make-up and style.

Each Flavas doll features two highly detailed fashion outfits, including rub-on decals that allow girls to “DIY” (do-it yourself) their own custom Flavas looks, another form of unique self-expression.

The Flavas launch campaign includes an innovative marketing and advertising push, including a sponsorship of this summer’s Christina Aguilera tour, who herself personifies the idea of fearless self-expression.

The dolls, the Flavas Tuner Car and Bike Date Motorcycle sets are now available at retail.

[Kimmie1913]

hijack/

although this relates to Steeltrap's original question, it is a bit of a hijack.

I came across the blog when I was searching for info on the dolls.


From the WOnderchild blog at http://wonderchild.blog-city.com/read/161275.htm

Wednesday, 30 July 2003
So Mattel has come out w/ a new line of Barbie Dolls called Flavas. Now this line is made to compete w/ the Bratz who are a line of dolls that have big lips. Now my girl actually worked on the line of the Bratz and helped come up with the design/concepts, clothing etc. The Bratz have done well, b/c although they have a urban edge, it is not planned nor is it trying to capitalize on a particular segment of the market. The Bratz never set out to be hip-hop or urban. They just tried to be cool and thus captured the teen market. What is cool to tweens
Mattel, in response to declining Barbie sales have come out w/ it's own line of dolls called Flavas. Now I read about this in the WSJ and coudln't tell if I was offended or not (typical white male response was why would this offend you?) But now I know. I am hugely offended and will tell you why.

One, these dolls are supposed to be hip-hop. I mean what is hip-hop? Newsweek had it right when they said these dolls are ghetto fabulous. They make a mockery of what the supposed hip-hop culture is. Hip-hop is not about the bling-bling or wearing baggy clothes or some projected lifestyle that mainstream can't see - prime example is how the mainstream has embraced emninen and 50, while not understanding the complexities of common, the roots or rakim.

Now you know how barbie used to have her dream house? Well, Flavas don't have a dream house, they have a a street corner. According to the most recent issue of Newsweek, the instructions state "Pull my street stand from the box, so I have a place to hang out" What the eff? Mind you her street stand is a graffiti covered wall. Again, according to the article and something the WSJ didn't mention, Mattel did not use any hiphop consultants when designing flavas. Now I am not going to comment on the diversity of Mattel's toy design deparment, but I can't imagine that it is a hotbed of ideas and thoughts from a variety of people. If you are going to desing a doll that is supposedly hiphop wouldnt it make sense to at least consult those mainstream hiphoppers? But then again if you consulted P. Diddy, Flavas might be wearing full length minks and real platinum.

Here is my open letter to Mattel:

Dear Mattel toys:

I have read about your Flavas dolls in both the Wall Street Journal as well as the current edition of Newsweek. As a member of the hip-hop generation, I find Flavas to be an insult to the very tenets of what hip-hop is and that is honesty and truth in its story telling. I understand your need to compete w/ the Bratz. However, The Bratz line differs from Flavas in very distinct ways. One, The Bratz do not claim to be hip-hop, hard or keeping it real. They, better then the promotional pictures I have seen of Flavas, better reflect trends in the teen market. This is due to one very important fact that your designers have seem to forgotten - teens are more then just hip-hop. The teen market is Eminem as much as it is Britney Spears and your line of dolls do not reflect this. Secondly, I know for a fact that the Bratz was designed with a diversity of people's opinions and ideas. Based on what I have seen thus far and what's in your press release, I cannot say the same about Flavas. Anytime you have to tell people how to correctly pronounce the name of your line is not a good idea. I mean if Flavas really represented your target audience of "tweens" and what they are about, then the market place will already know what Flava is and what it is about.

Also, I have a huge problem with the graffiti cardboard boxes and the instructions "Pull my street stand from the box, so I have a spot to hang out." One, why is hip-hop associated with hanging on the corner? Second, most of your market who is buying this doll will live in houses in very residential neighborhoods. The idea of hanging out on a street corner is as foreign to them as a backyard in New York City. What is next, you will sell bodegas that the Flavas dolls can go to to get a pack of Now & Laters?

Flavas smacks of phoniess and pandering to the teen market. As I am sure your marketing people can tell you, teens run from anything they perceive as being false. I have no doubt that you will sell these dolls b/c you have millions of dollars in advertising. However, next time you create a doll that is supposedly hip-hop, I would suggest you consult some of those who are hip-hop and maybe they can give you a better feel of what the "flava" is of hip-hop.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Kimmie1913

Now you know how barbie used to have her dream house? Well, Flavas don't have a dream house, they have a a street corner. According to the most recent issue of Newsweek, the instructions state "Pull my street stand from the box, so I have a place to hang out" What the eff? Mind you her street stand is a graffiti covered wall.

Say what? I am offended by that mess!! My momma (and a lot of other AfAm mommas) would have snatch my lil' butt off that street corner, talking about "hanging out". Dang, did they at least consult ONE black person?

SMH

Dag they are "killing us softly" in so many subtle ways that it ain't even funny.

ETA:
I wasn't sure what The Bratz dolls looked like, so I did a search and here they are. In case other people are wondering as well:

[Steeltrap]

Honeykiss and Kimmie, I don't mind the hijack at all. Again, the idea is what can we, as fortunate and educated people, do to help cut down or at least give some balance to all the negativity out there.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Steeltrap
Honeykiss and Kimmie, I don't mind the hijack at all. Again, the idea is what can we, as fortunate and educated people, do to help cut down or at least give some balance to all the negativity out there.

Cool. OK, here is another slight hijack, but does anyone else notice the STANCE of the dolls? I wonder could someone on the creative team be a member?

[Steeltrap]

I'm going to withhold comment on the dolls and their poses.

But here's an interesting Chicago Sun-Times piece:

Davis calls on young black men to shape up
October 17, 2003
BY CURTIS LAWRENCE Staff Reporter

Many a night, a distraught Danny Davis says, he drives through his West Side congressional district and sees a group of out-of-work black men hanging out on a corner. Or he pulls into a gas station where he watches a "sister" pumping gas in the rain while her male companion relaxes in the car. Thursday he said he had watched enough and that it was time to take action.

"There is a crisis in our community as it relates to the African-American male," Davis said in a conference call from Washington touting an initiative -- "The State of the African-American Male."

Davis, who has raised concerns about the disproportionate numbers of black men in prison and lack of resources for ex-offenders, said the initiative will focus not only on what government should do but will also call young black men and
their parents on the carpet to take responsibility. A weekend conference in Washington starting Nov. 14 will kick off the effort, which will include similar meetings across the country.

Not mincing words, Davis talked of his frustration with a lack of chivalry toward black women and with the isolation of young men who show an interest in academics or staying on the straight and narrow.

In one example, Davis talked about seeing a young black woman drive into a gas station.

"The sister gets out of the car to pump gas and he continues to sit there and rock," Davis said. "I don't think that's appropriate."

Davis also talked about young men being ostracized if they "appear to be straight-laced or wear normal-looking clothing as opposed to designer baggy pants or the highest-priced Nikes.

He said some black men "generate a quality of life activity that diminishes not just the individual who is participating, but diminishes the quality of life for the entire community."

Davis said he focused on black men because of the alarming statistics:

"There are more African men in prison than in college," Davis said, citing a litany of questions including "why a staggering 31.9 percent of African males are not employed and why African-American youth drop out of school at much higher rates than other groups."

Davis stressed that while he is calling on black men to be responsible for their actions and for successful black men to reach back to help. But "we're never going to give up on trying to force government to treat us fairly and to make use of public policy," he said.

In the East Garfield Park community Davis represents, his call to action got good reviews.

"To me it's degrading when you see young men not being respectful to themselves and to others," said Columbus Brooks, 87, outside of Edna's Soul Food Restaurant on Kedzie and Madison, where he is a regular.

Brooks, who worked for the city doing community outreach before he retired,blamed part of the problems in the community on a breakdown in two-parent families.

"When you don't have a solid foundation, then you can expect a kid to go astray," Brooks said.

"We were certainly not raised to disrespect women and elderly, and the younger generation for some reason has lost that lesson, said Larry McDonald, who works at the Family Start Learning Program at the city's Department of Human Services
office near Madison and Kedzie. He tied the root causes of the problems to underfunded neighborhoods and "elementary schools that don't have what they need to bring students into a technical society."

Sabrina Bell, a cashier at Edna's, said that when she talks to young men selling drugs, "they say there are no jobs or they lack education."

While Bell says young African-American men bear the responsibility for staying in school, she acknowledged that many have an uphill battle, especially those getting out of prison who find themselves locked out of many jobs because of felony records.

Dr. Carl Bell, a leading mental health expert at the University of Illinois at Chicago, said in a phone interview he has no problem holding black men accountable, but he cautioned against the further "demonizing" of black men, especially young men.

"I don't know how you hold them accountable if they're raising themselves,'' he said.

He hammered away at "a society that is unfairly slanted against black people and, in turn, black children. The quality of education you get is dependent upon the tax base where you live. How is education a right if that's the case?''

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