60 Minutes

[33girl]

Last night on 60 Minutes there was a story about affirmative action at the U of Michigan. Their admissions procedures include a scale of points (for example, 12 points for being valedictorian) that automatically gave 20 points to minorities.

The admissions director and I believe the provost repeatedly said that students in a diverse environment learn better, that being in a diverse environment was learning in and of itself, and that this justified their admissions procedures.

To me, this sounded like not only a criticism and/or indictment of predominantly white colleges, but historically black colleges as well.

Hide the sharp objects, and discuss....

[ZChi4Life]

Originally posted by 33girl:
Last night on 60 Minutes there was a story about affirmative action at the U of Michigan. Their admissions procedures include a scale of points (for example, 12 points for being valedictorian) that automatically gave 20 points to minorities.

The admissions director and I believe the provost repeatedly said that students in a diverse environment learn better, that being in a diverse environment was learning in and of itself, and that this justified their admissions procedures.

To me, this sounded like not only a criticism and/or indictment of predominantly white colleges, but historically black colleges as well.

Hide the sharp objects, and discuss....

That's interesting. I never thought of this as being a criticism of predominantly white and predom. black colleges/universities. Interesting.

Well I have to say that I do attend the U of Michigan and I've learned quite a bit about the 2 lawsuits we are facing. You can go to our homepage ( http://www.umich.edu ) to find out more about this if you all want.
Basically, we are being sued for reverse discrimination and unfair admissions procedures due to considering race as a factor of admissions.

As a minority student at UofM, I personally don't see anything wrong with using race as a factor for admissions. But maybe that's me being biased cuz I am a minority. Anyway, the number of minorities at our school is very low! Check this: we have about 30,000 peeps at our school. Of that number, 25,000 are undergrads.
Ok so then when you break down the ethnicities that go there, you get this:
approx. 2300 African Am
approx. 1700 Latino/a
approx. 40-50 Native Am
Asian students are not considered a minority because their numbers are quite large (I don't have the numbers..sorry)
So if you take the total number of minorities--about 4,040-4,050 minorities--substract that from the number of undergrads, you can get an estimate of how many Caucasian students we have. It's quite large! (This also doesn't include the number of international students we have either...I don't know the numbers...sorry again)

Overall, I can say that our school is diverse but not as diverse as I think it can be. Last year the number of Af. Am students dropped like 2% but apparently it went back up this year. The number of Afr. Am students had been on a decline in the past 3-4 years, but it changed this year. So I just think that considering race and using Affirm. Action, etc for admissions is necessary. Otherwise, I'm not too sure how many minorities would be at UofM or any other school if they didn't use it. I honestly think the numbers would drop significantly. It's like this: if people know ahead of time that their college of choice doesn't really want to create a diverse atmosphere in the classroom, then why would they want to be at that school? Hmmm, for me, that would be an issue, but maybe it wouldn't be for others.

Sorry that was long, but I felt I needed to comment since I attend UofM.

[This message has been edited by ZChi4Life (edited October 31, 2000).]

[Corbin Dallas]

Wouldn't NOT asking about race mean that they want to let a diverse atmosphere happen on its own? I think if I was a minority, I would rather apply to a college that didn't ask about my race.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[ZChi4Life]

Originally posted by Corbin Dallas:
Wouldn't NOT asking about race mean that they want to let a diverse atmosphere happen on its own? I think if I was a minority, I would rather apply to a college that didn't ask about my race.

I see what you're saying. But look what happened BEFORE things like Affirmative Action and Equal Opportunity. Places like schools and workplaces remained segregated. There is a chance that diversity would happen on its own, but there is a good chance it won't. For minorities, I think it's like, if we see a place where there aren't many of us, then we move on. It's honestly intimidating and awkward to be in a place where you don't have SOMEONE like you in terms of ethnicity. I think anyone would feel that way, whether you were white at an predom. black school or vice versa. I know first hand about this cuz before college, I went to a predom white high school. You could count the number of black people on one hand! I was VERY intimidated. I fortunately got over it and saw that everyone was really cool and I made great friends. But some of the black people that came to my school later on, ended up leaving cuz they couldn't get comfortable. So, for some people it's important to go to a school or work some place w/ many other minorities. If schools didn't ask about ethnicity to mix up their atmosphere, it would probably end up predominantly one ethnicity.

Also, if they didn't ask about race, then it could say to some people that they didn't care about them as a whole. Let me try to explain. It's like, for me, being Black is who I am, it's a part of what makes me ME. Therefore, to me, if a school didn't ask about my racial background, it could make me think, "Do they care about me in total? Or do they just care about my money I'm giving to them? Get it? It's hard to say over email. I think at times, being "color blind" is not that good. It's kinda like avoiding the issue cuz you know the issue (ethnicity) will just bring up controversy, etc. I'm not saying controversy is good, but a person's ethnicity is not going to change, therefore the "problem" is not going to go away. It's like you can run, but you can't hide. In this case, you can avoid it, but it's gonna be there no matter what so you might as well deal with it.


------------------
A Radiant Lady of
Zeta Sigma Chi Multicultural Sorority, Inc.
http://www.umich.edu/~zchi

[This message has been edited by ZChi4Life (edited November 01, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ZChi4Life (edited November 01, 2000).]

[12dn94dst]

i do see something wrong with using race as a measure for admissions. it's almost like saying "you're going to have trouble meeting our admission standards because you're black (hispanic, native american, etc), so we're going to give you an extra 20 points to help you out." it's patronizing. also, using race/ethnicity as a factor sounds too much like a quota system for me, which is totally wrong. companies and schools all over pervert Affirmative Action with quotas. it's like corbin was saying on another thread that companies and schools may pass up a qualified purple person for a not-so-qualified plaid person because they're under their quota for plaid people. yes, it's nice to know that we have 23% green people, 10% orange people, 4% grey polka-dot people, 35% striped people, 8% clear people, and %20 red people but it's not so nice to find out you received extra points on your admissions rating JUST BECAUSE you're grey polka dot.

BUT, I would not knowingly attend a school with a low percentage of African Americans. It's like ZChi was saying, you have to have SOMEONE to relate to. And just because there are some peeps there doesn't mean you're going to 1) see them on a regular basis and 2) click with them, so you need a bunch. It's WONDERFUL to have someone who truly appreciates the many meanings of the word "girl"...someone who knows the profound meaning of "Lord willin and the creek don't rise"....someone who TRULY understands your frustration when you try on a pair of pants that are have a gap in the waist, fit ok around your butt, and are a lil too tight in the thighs but you can't do too much about it because those are the one that fit you best....but I digress.

[mgdzkm433]

I know that when I was growing up, my grade school was 100% caucasian students (that was k-6). When I started high school (which was 7-12: we didn't have a middle/jr high school). We had no more than 3 african american students at one time. That was it. Not very diverse (high school when I graduated had roughly 650 students grades 7-12). Now, I went to a small school, slightly rural (in a town of about 3500). In the city, of course it was a bit more diverse, but not much more. My example of my high school is also a example of my state (west virginia) We just don't have very much ethnic diversity. I can see that providing more points for of minority could benifit a school and a state. Without this point system (which I'm not sure if we even have--but I'm assuming that we do) we probably wouldn't have the diversity that we do in our colleges and universities in this state. I think that providing diversity for ALL students is important. I can see also how it can be considered insulting though. Maybe students should be given the choice of whether or not they want to accept the extra points?

[ZChi4Life]

12dn94dst-
I agree that the point system is patronizing. I am kinda in the middle on the this system and Affir. Action as a whole. At my school, I feel this system is needed. I honestly think our diversity would drop if the point system were taken away. However, I also don't like it. I really wish we were at a point where we could do away with stuff like that and have things occur naturally (like Corbin stated earlier). BUT, like I said, I'm not sure if diversity would naturally occur at the rate it is now. And as I said, it's not all that great now anyway. IMO, minorities would need to equal at least half of the student body before they decided to do away w/ the point system. At this point, we wouldn't be a minority, but equal (or pretty close to it). However, when this will ever happen, I don't know. So until we can get to this point, I'm down for keeping the point system going. It's quite an interesting system too. I learned about it my Junior year. At first, I was upset, but then it kinda made me wonder how many points I got!

[This message has been edited by ZChi4Life (edited November 03, 2000).]

[mgdzkm433]

Here's a thought, what about at schools that caucasian men/women are the minority? Do the caucasian students receive more points?

[ZetaAce]

Originally posted by mgdzkm433:
Here's a thought, what about at schools that caucasian men/women are the minority? Do the caucasian students receive more points?

Yes, at some schools they do. Hampton University is one of those schools. (I didn't go there but I read about it in the paper). Also caucasion people receive minority scholarships at most black schools too.

ZetaAce

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by mgdzkm433:
Here's a thought, what about at schools that caucasian men/women are the minority? Do the caucasian students receive more points?

ZetaAce is correct in her answer to you. There was also a story on one of the TV news magazine shows (I don't remember which one--I get them mixed up) that talked about the 'minority' scholarships at HBCU Alabama State (or was it Alabama A & M? Can you tell I'm not a stickler for details ) The state government in AL is trying to balance enrollment at all schools and, as a result, trying to get white student to attend the historically black schools. To do this they are giving them full scholarships. It was an interesting discussion.

[madmax]

Originally posted by ZChi4Life
That's interesting. I never thought of this as being a criticism of predominantly white and predom. black colleges/universities. Interesting.

Well I have to say that I do attend the U of Michigan and I've learned quite a bit about the 2 lawsuits we are facing. You can go to our homepage ( http://www.umich.edu ) to find out more about this if you all want.
Basically, we are being sued for reverse discrimination and unfair admissions procedures due to considering race as a factor of admissions.

As a minority student at UofM, I personally don't see anything wrong with using race as a factor for admissions. But maybe that's me being biased cuz I am a minority. Anyway, the number of minorities at our school is very low! Check this: we have about 30,000 peeps at our school. Of that number, 25,000 are undergrads.
Ok so then when you break down the ethnicities that go there, you get this:
approx. 2300 African Am
approx. 1700 Latino/a
approx. 40-50 Native Am
Asian students are not considered a minority because their numbers are quite large (I don't have the numbers..sorry)
So if you take the total number of minorities--about 4,040-4,050 minorities--substract that from the number of undergrads, you can get an estimate of how many Caucasian students we have. It's quite large! (This also doesn't include the number of international students we have either...I don't know the numbers...sorry again)

How is lowering admission standards going to help anyone increase their earning power upon graduation?

Asians don't recieve any points for being Asian. They teach their kids to excell and have higer academic standards. As a result they have the highest per capita income.

[Kevlar281]

Do they teach this class?

[Cloud9]

Actually, I saw an article recently saying that right now the biggest recipients of affirmative action are WHITE MALES. According to the article, there are less males in general attending college than women, and schools are using AA programs to attract them. Many people don't really understand what affirmative action means. There are a multitude of programs that are targeted at all different groups in the country. Affirmative action affects just about everyone, it is not simply a "black people get into college no matter what" card. In fact, that is barely scratching the surface. The world is unequal and people are often predjudiced, either consciously or unconsciously. Without these sorts of programs, there are many groups that would suffer unfair treatment.

Just a side note: I actually think it's insulting that people assume that any black person that benifits from AA must automatically be intelligently inferior to the competing white person. Trust me, there are enough fully qualified black people to deservedly fill those spots. Maybe even more so, considering the widespread inequalities in education, career, and day to day living opportunities they must overcome to get there in the first place.