Rights

[TexasAGD]

Muslim Woman Sues to Wear Veil for License
By MIKE SCHNEIDER, Associated Press Writer

ORLANDO, Fla. - Experts in Islamic law are being called to testify in the lawsuit of a Muslim woman fighting a state order to take off her veil for her driver's license photo.

Sultanna Freeman, 35, says Florida's insistence on photographing her face violates her religious rights.

"I don't unveil ... because it would be disobeying my Lord," Freeman testified Tuesday at the start of her non-jury trial.

Assistant Attorney General Jason Vail argued that having an easily identifiable photo on a driver's license is a matter of public safety.

"It's the primary method of identification in Florida and the nation," Vail said. "I don't think there can be any doubt there is a public safety interest."

Freeman's attorneys argue that state officials didn't care that she wore a veil in her Florida driver's license photo until after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, an allegation the state denies.

"This is about religious liberty. It's about whether this country is going to have religious diversity," said Howard Marks, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) of Florida.

Both sides planned to call experts in Islamic law at the trial, which continues Wednesday. A copy of the Quran has been entered into evidence.

Freeman, a convert to Islam previously known as Sandra Kellar, wore her veil for the photo on the Florida driver's license she obtained after moving to the state in 2001.

Nine months later, she received a letter from the state warning that it would revoke her license unless she returned for a photo with her face uncovered.

Freeman claims her religious beliefs require her to keep her head and face covered out of modesty and that her faith prohibits her face from being photographed.

What do you think?

[steelepike]

the thing is blocking her face she needs to unveil. i know it is against her religion but seriously i think she can ask for forgiveness.

[aephi alum]

Hmm... I don't know.

On the one hand, her religion says that women must be veiled in public, and that should be respected. An Orthodox Jewish man, for instance, probably wouldn't be asked to remove his yarmulke or his hat for an ID photo.

On the other hand, it could be anyone under that veil. You can't see hair color, you can barely see skin color. You can tell a veiled woman's height, but not necessarily her weight. So it isn't a good form of identification.

I did find it interesting that her ID photo (with veil) was only challenged after 9/11.

And I have heard somewhere that Muslim women aren't supposed to drive anyway. Not sure if that's true or not... I don't recall the source.

[bethany1982]

This is such BS! Driving in itself is not a right. Driving is a state sponsored privilege. She has a right to keep her face covered. However, if having your picture on a license is a requirement for the privilege of obtaining that license, she must be required to make a choice. She can't expect to have it both ways. If the court finds for her, I think I'll find a religion which prohibits state licensing, then challenge the necessity to have a license in order to legally drive. OK, that last part may have been a bit sarcastic.

[texas*princess]

i don't really know where i would stand on that one...

i don't really see what the big deal is.. I guess she's just really religious or something, but i knew a couple of muslim women who had un-veiled drivers licenses like everyone else. now that i think about it, i never saw them in the full veil & dress thing either, but i do know they were mulsim..

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by bethany1982
This is such BS! Driving in itself is not a right. Driving is a state sponsored privilege. She has a right to keep her face covered. However, if having your picture on a license is a requirement for the privilege of obtaining that license, she must be required to make a choice. She can't expect to have it both ways. If the court finds for her, I think I'll find a religion which prohibits state licensing, then challenge the necessity to have a license in order to legally drive. OK, that last part may have been a bit sarcastic.

You actually make an excellent point, Bethany. I agree with you. It's a wonder this hasn't been challenged before.

[TexasAGD]

here is my 2 cents and it may be a bit harsh: i think that if she does not like what this country requires of her to do, then she has the right to leave and go back to the country where she came from. a country where she probably doesen't have the right to drive. america is a free country yes, but just because her religion says not to unveil in public does not make her any special. there are reasons why you unveil for these photos, for her identification and protection. anyone can be under that veil.

[Hootie]

Yeah I would have to sorta agree because you know we embrace religious freedoms but there IS a seperation from religion and state. For instance just because those who practice Judaism believe in a Kosher diet does not mean the rest of us have to follow their diet and be subjected to Kosher meals at all restraunts. Religious freedom means the ability to practice your religion and no one religion is forced upon you. But the laws of the land prevail over religion to some extent and especially when it comes to our safety.

Besides, this just dawned on me, how can we say that she's entitled to get her driver's license anyways? Who's to say that her vailed face may prohibit her from viewing the road fully and safely enough to even DRIVE a vehicle. Just a thought....not trying to insult anyone but just playing devil's advocate (so please do not think I'm being predjudice).

[James]

The veil doesn't cover your eyes gorgeous . I just wound a scarf around my face minus the eyes and I can see fine lol.

Originally posted by Hootie
Yeah I would have to sorta agree because you know we embrace religious freedoms but there IS a seperation from religion and state. For instance just because those who practice Judaism believe in a Kosher diet does not mean the rest of us have to follow their diet and be subjected to Kosher meals at all restraunts. Religious freedom means the ability to practice your religion and no one religion is forced upon you. But the laws of the land prevail over religion to some extent and especially when it comes to our safety.

Besides, this just dawned on me, how can we say that she's entitled to get her driver's license anyways? Who's to say that her vailed face may prohibit her from viewing the road fully and safely enough to even DRIVE a vehicle. Just a thought....not trying to insult anyone but just playing devil's advocate (so please do not think I'm being predjudice).

[James]

I'd like to remind you that not all states require a photo ID. I know many people from NJ who opt not to have a photo ID. Generally they are so far past 21 that no one ie going to card them.

The legal issue will be if her civil rights are being violated, and I believe that is usually a federal issue.

So does our consititutionally guarenteed freedom of religion (federal) supersede the states requirement for a photo ID.

I assume that Florida doesn't have a non-photo option? That they are not just picking on muslims post 9/11?

[Lady Pi Phi]

Originally posted by TexasAGD
here is my 2 cents and it may be a bit harsh: i think that if she does not like what this country requires of her to do, then she has the right to leave and go back to the country where she came from. a country where she probably doesen't have the right to drive. america is a free country yes, but just because her religion says not to unveil in public does not make her any special. there are reasons why you unveil for these photos, for her identification and protection. anyone can be under that veil.

Just something I saw from the article. Her Name was Sandra Keller before she converted to Islam. It sounds to me like she is an American (judging solely on her original name), so moving back to where she came from might just mean moving to a different state.
However I could be wrong.

Edit to add: You don't have to be an Arab to be a Muslim.

[bethany1982]

Originally posted by James
I'd like to remind you that not all states require a photo ID. I know many people from NJ who opt not to have a photo ID. Generally they are so far past 21 that no one ie going to card them.

The legal issue will be if her civil rights are being violated, and I believe that is usually a federal issue.

So does our consititutionally guarenteed freedom of religion (federal) supersede the states requirement for a photo ID.

I assume that Florida doesn't have a non-photo option? That they are not just picking on muslims post 9/11?

The feds do not address the issue. Therefore, it should be left to the states via the 10th amendment. She can practice her religion without driving a car.

[swissmiss04]

I converted to Islam last year. First of all, no where in any source does it say that women must veil their faces. Wearing a head scarf (which I don't do, fyi) and dressing modestly (which I usually do) is considered obligatory.
Secondly, I get so peeved when people (Americans particularly) change their names when they convert to sound more Arab. If someone converted to Christianity and renamed herself, people would think she was a quack.
Thirdly, there is no way she could safely drive w/ a niqab (veil) on. It's hard enuf for me to drive w/ a hat on or something. Honestly, I get so pissed sometimes that people try to make things so difficult. This "Sultana" lady is giving baaaaaaad PR for all Muslims. The majority of us are normal every day people and our lives are made far more difficult by jokers like this.

[docetboy]

great post swissmiss!

[swissmiss04]

Thanks