Are you worried about our society?

[LeslieAGD]

I was watching Oprah today and she was talking about the high school "hazing" incident and other reckless/violent teenage incidents. Then I watched the news and was further disturbed by similar incidents. I really worry about the state of our society and the raising of our youth. It's such a blame game: kids don't take responsibility and parents don't seem to make them...sometimes the parents even contribute to it or try to cover it up. "Oh, they're just kids." Yeah, that'll make them grow up! Doesn't anyone have values/morals/conscience anymore? What is our society coming to? What is it going to be like...5 years from now...10 years from now? Personally, I find it really distressing!

[bethany1982]

This is a great thread Leslie.

I think it's the same old story. Each generation finds a reason to "worry" about those who follow. Youth always have a way of shocking society. Elvis moved his hips and caused panic. The Beatles were an outrage. When heavy metal hit, some said it was the devil. There is even an idiot in another forum that thinks we (Greeks) are involved in cults. Kids have been killing kids throughout history. Is it bad today? Yes, it is. Is it really any different than 20 years ago? I don't think so. Perhaps it is different than 50 years ago. Do I worry about it? No! I tend not to worry about things I cannot control. All I can do is make sure I'm not involved in the stupidity, be aware of the dangers, and hope that when I have children, I can raise them in a manner that they learn the value of life and the difference between right and wrong. OMG, moral absolutes... LOL. Yes, I said, "right and wrong."

[CatStarESP4]

I agree Bethany1982, but this went on before the advent of Elvis. In the early part of the 20th, the young people shock their elders by dancing to close to each other and listening to ragtime music. Women, would start smoking, drinking and wearing pants at that time (that was a scandal to their Victorian elders). However, when they got married and had children, whatever the children were listening to they'd get shock (from generation to generation). My mom listened to the Beatles and Buddy Holly, but she was shocked when I was 11 and listening to Twisted Sister and other metal groups. I am afraid if and when I have children that whatever they listen to, I be mad.

I am also outraged over what's going in this society. The blame game has to stop and real responsibilty must be taken. I don't understand the parents saying "oh, they just kids, this will make them grow up". Another thing they say is "this build character". I doubt the kids would learn anything useful about these stupid shenanigans, only to behave even worse than before. I hate to see how it goes in 5, 10, 15 or 20 years

[KillarneyRose]

This is a little bit off topic, but I see the parents of the kids in my daughters' school and they really seem to have the attitude that their little ones can do no wrong. If there is a problem, it is the fault of the teacher or a classmate, but NEVER their kid.

I don't know if this is a new attitude, or if it was always like that and I just wasn't aware of it. I just know that if the principal had called MY home because I was acting up, I would have been in trouble with my parents. They wouldn't have been playing "pass the blame"!

How about those kids outside of Chicago who were videotaped hazing and got expelled and their parents promptly hired lawyers to try to have them reinstated? Snarky li'l brats

[tinydancer]

KR, I have to agree with you. I see sooo many parents at my school who think their children can do no wrong. They aren't doing their kids any favor in the long run.

Today I got b****ed out by a grandma who swears that her grandson returned his library book. I explained that I had double-checked the shelves because he is usually dependable. She had the nerve to say that if I couldn't find it, it was the SCHOOL'S fault. Never mind that if he did bring it back to school, he did not put it in the correct place; therefore, he did not follow directions.

I swear, some people....

[docetboy]

The problem is rich kid's parents SPOILING them instead of teaching them lessons.

Oh, you dumped human feces on your schoolmates and got kicked out of your prom? Well, we don't want your senior year messed up regardless of what you've done, so we will spend our own money to throw you one.

[LeslieAGD]

Originally posted by docetboy
The problem is rich kid's parents SPOILING them

I don't think it can be placed solely on "rich" families/parents. I think our society has become so desensitized that we accept violence and attitude and tantrums as "changing times."

[starang21]

Originally posted by LeslieAGD
I don't think it can be placed solely on "rich" families/parents. I think our society has become so desensitized that we accept violence and attitude and tantrums as "changing times."

not completely blame, but with the bullshit that's happening in the chi.....you can pretty much chalk it up to piss poor parenting and spoiling the child. whatever happened to corporal punishment? if i even thought about acting a fool when i was a kid, i got my ass beat. IMHO, that's what we need to go back to. these li'l retards need to learn some discipline. same with some of these young kids in college, but none of them tried nothing on me when i was TA'ing....but damn, i wish they would have. have no problem punking a kid out.

[Kevin]

I think it's the opposite of what you're all saying.

Society is now actually noticing that this goes on! It's been going on for years now!

In this one HS incedent (let's face it, if there were no video it wouldn't even be newsworthy) it was reported that although this had gone on for some time, it had never gotten so out of hand.

I find that hard to believe.

30 years from now if something like this had happened -- or someone got seriously hurt in say a college hazing incedent they would have written it off and said something like "Boys will be boys".

It doesn't make it right in any way. However, society as a whole has just now started really paying attention to this stuff (thank the 24 hour news cycle).

[valkyrie]

I'm guessing that this all goes in cycles. I bet that many of today's parents who have these snarky little beasts running amok in our society were raised by very strict parents, and are now erring in the other direction because *they* don't want to be too strict. When their kids grow up, they may end up being strict again because their parents weren't. What I think people fail to realize (and of course I'm not really one to talk since I don't have kids) is that a little moderation may be best. If you're too strict, your kids become sneaky and don't learn how to think for themselves, and if you're too lenient, you end up with a feces throwing spectacle.

As for corporal punishment -- I couldn't disagree more. To me, hitting your children teaches them that violence is an effective tool to solve problems and resolve conflicts. I think that's never a good idea.

[Tom Earp]

True, Society changes, some good some bad.

We have come to the point whereby This Society is Sue You Happy.

This Society has come via the ACLU, that The Teacher cannot reprimand a child, physically or verbally!

The parents expect the teachers to do the reprimanding, but the teachers are not the primary, the parents are.

The Parents cannot, because that is child abuse and the parents go to jail without a defense, this is automatic.

I have a customer who told his two sons No they could not do what they wanted. They called in a abuse call and he went to jail, automatic. He did not touch them!!

Schools cannot discipline them, they just kick them out of school. Where do they go?

Well the streets of course. Then what happens., they hook up and cause more probles until they get to be adults and then they go to Jail or Prison!

Are you a parent? Do you want to be a parent?

[DeltAlum]

This is a pretty tough one for me, because I find myself conflicted when I try to form an answer. I'm sure the post will sound that way, so I appologize in advance.

There is a really old gag (and I'm not going to take the time to look for it -- I've got other things to do) where someone quotes a lot of stuff about kids being unruly, not listening to their parents, being resentful and uncaring, rebellious and all of this other stuff. The writer was Plato or some other "ancient" philosopher. There is another one where they describe three men. Two of them are made to sound like the dregs of the earth and one like the model citizen. The model citizen was Hitler. It all depends on context.

I don't know if things are worse now than they've been in the past -- but I do know that we hear a lot more about them than we ever have. My industry is very much to blame for that. Particularly now that there are so many news sources available on TV and cable. We are saturated.

Tom's comments about a litigation-happy society is certainly right.

And teachers are caught in the middle of a three way mess. Parents want teachers to be proxy parents -- until the teacher says or does something the parent disagrees with. Schools are expected to be In Loco Parentis, which the kids hate and the parents support until -- again -- the school does something to discipline little Johnny or Jane. The kids play one against the other. They're not dumb.

Well, usually.

As a parent, you sit and think, "I can't believe that this kid thinks I don't know what's going on!" They play all of the same games we did at their age. And they do it the same way, and try to cover with the same tricks. The more things change, the more they stay the same. But the stakes may be much higher in the long run.

Two of our kids were real academic winners in both high school and college. The other, our athlete, ended up barely graduating from high school and ended up in detox. What a blow to our family and our "egos" as parents. Of course, she is the one we worry least about now. She's a great mother and will probably be more financially successful than all of the rest of us as a hair dresser. The others are "artists" and will probably need and expect support all of their lives. They may be in for a rude shock due to our employment opportunities and income possibilities wither in this economy.

So, what does it all mean. Beats the hell out of me. In the long run, I suspect that the generations now growing up will end up taking responsibility as needed and carry on fairly well.

But parts of it can certainly be scary. Why do you think your parents have grey hair? Why is mine turning? How long before your does?

[sororitygirl2]

I agree with ktsnake in that people are starting to stand up and take notice of things more than they used to.

I have heard a lot of reports of violent crime going down in areas, with "little" crimes increasing, yet people are so worried for their safety... just because they notice the few violent crimes that are more obvious in our self-righteous, politically correct society.

For instance, obviously the reported incidence of rape has probably gone up since the 50s, but that doesn't necessarily mean there are more occurences, people just feel more comfortable in reporting it than they used to (although still not comfortable enough).

I think that it is all a cycle and we can't be unhappy with society for how it is. We can try to make a difference in our own small ways, but we can't change everyone. Things are they way they are for a reason, and they tend to right themselves or get righted somehow. (That probably didn't make sense, but it does in my head... I swear!)

[sugar and spice]

I don't think it's necessarily gotten any worse. There have ALWAYS been problems with the way one generation views the one following them. I read a book on American history that says basically, the crime/drug use/whatever rates have remained pretty steady throughout America's history, but each generation likes to pretend they're steadily growing worse in order to instill panic and try to cause the current generation to "shape up." You can see this in the concern over the divorce rates -- they've actually been holding steady since the early 1970s, but everybody thinks they're steadily increasing and will eventually lead to the point where nobody stays married for more than a year.

I guess the point is that while the ways in which kids misbehave are constantly changing, a lot of it stays the same. I mean, hazing has been taking place for hundreds of years -- it was actually far more common and accepted at the turn of the 20th century than it is today.

[AXJules]

Originally posted by docetboy
The problem is rich kid's parents SPOILING them instead of teaching them lessons.

Oh, you dumped human feces on your schoolmates and got kicked out of your prom? Well, we don't want your senior year messed up regardless of what you've done, so we will spend our own money to throw you one.

Please don't even get me started with this....I went to the school (GBN) that the tape is from and if you want my input (which you probably don't) you can read all about it in the Risk Managment thread.
Docet, I usually agree with what you have to say, but I'm begging you, please don't let the media sway you into turning this into a one sided issue. We're not all rich. Kids getting spoiled didn't lead to this sickening display- nothing could have caused it, IMHO, besides crappy parenting....personally I don't think that's the same as being spoiled. For some reason these 14 girls weren't raised with morals, weren't taught how to be HUMAN BEINGS and I think that's sick.
But you cannot say that it's just spoiled kids. Kids in down home farm towns get hazed. Teens in the ghetto beat the ever loving shit out of each other for gang initiation. It can happen anywhere.
Anyway I'm just tired of seeing it turned into a money issue. It's not a class issue, it's not a race issue. It's raising children to treat other people with respect, and for some reason our society in general just isn't about that anymore.