The Patriot Act II

[Cloud9]

With this war going on, it's easy to get caught up in thinking about what's going on in Iraq, the soldiers, their familys, and the politics of the whole situation. But I think that we should also remember that there are other things going on in this country, other agendas that the government has, that are severely limiting the freedoms we so dearly love and claim to defend.

Have any of you done any research on the Homeland Security Act passed in the wake of 9/11? Or the Patriot Act? Most notably, it provided sweeping powers to law enforcement and intelligence agencies, doing away with the checks and balances that had been put into place to prevent the abuse of these powers. They allow for survellance of citizens, including over the internet. Meaning that if you happen to be surfing anti-Bush sites, the government may be keeping tabs on you. If also includes new definitions of terrorism, which could include members of legitimate protest groups. It also allows for the collection of DNA samples for ANY crime of violence. The government can now wiretap and even arrest you for a minimum of 10 years for being suspected of intentionally or unintentionally violating the Computer abuse and Fraud Act. It allows the government to spy on American Citizens and Foreigners in the country...it used to be that this could only be done if there is suspicion that the person is a Foreign Agent...now the only reason needed is the scarily vague reason that there is a "significant purpose." You can now also be wiretapped without probable cause.

These are just SOME of the disturbing provisions that are in effect now. You can do a quick search to find more.

Now there is a new patriot act, the Patriot Act II coming into play. The government has been very hush-hush about it, and even lied, saying that there was no intention to pass such an act, that it was just for research. Now it looks like the administration will try to take advantage of the war and our averted attention to push this bill forward. This act will limit our civil rights more than before, and will also upset the balance of power that exists between the state and federal government. Under this act, the government will be able appoint federal officials to oversee the state governments. Please read that sentence again and let it register. Also under this act, citizens can be arrested for questionable reasons and held without releasing information regarding their whereabouts, or even why they are incarcarated...the press will also be denied information about arrests, including names. What this means is that anyone can be taken from the street for no other reason than "seeming supsicious" and never seen again. You can also have your citizenship stripped from you for being a suspected terrorist.

If you are not worried by reading this information, and are not planning to do research to take a closer look at this situation, there is something very wrong. Under these new laws, our government will have the means to form the small beginnings of a "big brother" dictatorship. These are the same sort of provisions that leaders such as Adolf Hitler imposed in the early and subtle days of their rule. I realize that we have all been shocked by the events of the past 2 years, but it's time to shake ourselves off and stop being passive in our fear, allowing our government to destroy the very constitution we SAY we are defending right now! Please, for a moment stop talking about the Oscars, Vera Wang dresses and who the best Fraternity is and educate yourselves about what is going on in this country. (And those are all great things to talk about btw, I just ask for a pause to examine a very serious and impending situation). And for those worried about our troops and the war situation - don't allow your concern to blur the focus on defending at home what it is they were supposedly sent to defend! Take a look at what is happening and get involved before it's too late!

[Kevin]

Expect a lot of these provisions to be challenged and defeated by the Supreme Court.

I think in the long run we need something like that to protect us. Hopefully many years from now it can be repealled. But for now I'd rather they be able to go after the bad guys and if they have to go through my stuff to get to 'em.. At least I'm alive afterwards.

[Cloud9]

I'm one that supports the whole "break a few eggs to make an omelette"...but this is more like killing the chicken. I don't think that is is something that should exist EVER. The witch hunt that went on during the 50s is very similar to what could easily happen under these new laws. The intent was the same, to protect the citizens of america. But whenever you have loopholes that exist like that for the government, it's guaranteed they will be taken advantage of. Let's look at it this way...say this thing goes into effect, and next election someone gets into office that you have a HUGE problem with(let's put aside any predictions you may have concerning said election). You dislike this person enough that you are stirred to action, lobbying, putting up a website, speaking out, whatever. Lets say your instincts are right and this hypothetical administration is doing terrible things to the country. Under this law, you could just be carted off to jail, WITHout being charged, without your family being notified...as far as they'd know you just disapeared. Do we really have to wait till it comes to that point before the people of this country do something about it? I really don't understand people who are such vocal "patriots", talking about how wonderful this country is, how many rights we have, yet just shrug when our bill of rights is torn up in Washington DC. There is no justification for that. As I always hear others saying, people DIED for those rights, and I'd rather have died on 9/11 in those towers than have them still standing while the government keeps taps on me and jails my neighbors without evidence.

A bird in a cage is free of predators, but it is still caged, it is not free.

[agger_rob]

I agree with ktsnake. It might be an inconvenience and a hinderance, but at least I know that my loved ones are being looked out for in the long run.

Originally posted by Cloud9
They allow for survellance of citizens, including over the internet. Meaning that if you happen to be surfing anti-Bush sites, the government may be keeping tabs on you.

Tom Daschle's going to jail!

If also includes new definitions of terrorism, which could include members of legitimate protest groups.

And probably quite a few IL-legitimate protest groups.

It allows the government to spy on American Citizens and Foreigners in the country...it used to be that this could only be done if there is suspicion that the person is a Foreign Agent...now the only reason needed is the scarily vague reason that there is a "significant purpose."

Those guidelines worked real well two Septembers ago.

What this means is that anyone can be taken from the street for no other reason than "seeming supsicious" and never seen again.

The American government is now being run by Tony Soprano.

And I think I'll just ignore the Hitler comparison.

[Honeykiss1974]

Unfortunately most people don't even care. They would rather blindly simply regurgitate the "reasonings" that are fed to them via public officials/media instead of actually doing a little research on it.

[Cloud9]

"Unfortunately most people don't even care."

That's incredible to me! How can people not care? I'm not understanding, and again, it's always the same people who trumpet the greatness of our country and the freedom within. I live in NYC, I was there when 9/11 happened, I witnessed the towers burning and falling, and many of my friends who lived a block away and saw people jumping from windows and ran as dust and rubble overcame them. And yet we are all in concensus that though it was horrible, it did not, it could not ever warrant the taking away of those freedoms that the people in those buildings and in the pentagon died for. They died for that freedom, as the patriots died for theirs, and sometimes that is the price. Give me liberty or give me death is what I believe in, and nothing else, especially not panic or fear will make be feel otherwise. I am appalled that so many of us who talk about it quail at the opportunity to prove it. Especially those who, I'm sorry to say it, were not there. At least those who were could have some small crumb of an excuse. But not much.

Another point - There is no evidence that the policies put into place have done anything to increase our safety. In fact, many of these laws do not even adress terrorism, but apply instead to domestic affairs. PLEASE REVIEW THIS BILL.

[moe.ron]

[cash78mere]

i am more concerned with being alive while this war is going on.

i am willing to give up some of my rights to protect future generations from terrorists.

these issues will never all pass.

[Cloud9]

Wow, this is sad. Now I see why the rights of groups over history have had to fight for so long and so persistently. People don't care enough until they are the ones directly in danger of losing those rights. And even this is pretty blatenly threatening to us all, and all I've seen people respond with so far is "eh, I don't really need rights, as long as the bad guys are caught." I really hope that this is not a reflection of our general nation's population. I dunno that's really sad, hopefully people will wake up soon, and before this gets too far.


Why are we fighting this war again? So we can secure freedoms for another country that we're just GIVING away, so the government can "borrow" them??? Oh yeah, I'm sure they'll be happy to hand them right back without a fight too. Good Lord, I don't understand people sometimes.

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by Cloud9
Wow, this is sad. Now I see why the rights of groups over history have had to fight for so long and so persistently. People don't care enough until they are the ones directly in danger of losing those rights. And even this is pretty blatenly threatening to us all, and all I've seen people respond with so far is "eh, I don't really need rights, as long as the bad guys are caught." I really hope that this is not a reflection of our general nation's population. I dunno that's really sad, hopefully people will wake up soon, and before this gets too far.

My thoughts exactly. What bothers me most is the pride we have about ourselves and the apathy we have about others. I thought we would learn from 9/11, apparently a lot have not.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Cloud9
People don't care enough until they are the ones directly in danger of losing those rights.

I quoted the above, because this has been the attitude of a lot of people concerning everything from poverty all the way down to the rules in their Home Owner's Assoc. covnent.

Most folks don't excited about much until its at their front door.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Cloud9
People don't care enough until they are the ones directly in danger of losing those rights.

I quoted the above, because this has been the attitude of a lot of people concerning everything from poverty all the way down to the rules in their Home Owner's Assoc. convent.

Most folks don't excited about much until its at their front door.

[lifesaver]

Originally posted by Dionysus
My thoughts exactly. What bothers me most is the pride we have about ourselves and the apathy we have about others. I thought we would learn from 9/11, apparently a lot have not.

Was I the only one to notice the following? (Dinos mention of 9/11 got me thinking)

Yeah, I'll say it, I was LESS THAN PLEASED to see what, 100,000 NYC liberals marching against the war on Terror 2 weekends ago in that STARTED IN THEIR DAMN BACKYARD. Ungratefuls. 9/11 $hit didnt happen in Houston, LA or Seattle, yet its OUR kids going off to war to eliminate saddam. Some of you might say "this war isnt about terror, its about oil." I am sure our govmt has proof of the WMD Iraq has and secondly, Do you really think we'd even be fighting this war if 9/11 had never happened? Not only no, but hell no. we have now been prompted to clean up SOB's whos actions in their own country deliberately threaten ours. Its that simple.

Secondly for the Patriot act I, II or whatever, dood, my momma always taught me, keep your damned nose clean and you have nothing to worry about. Example: Got an MIP at a party, well ya probably shouldnt have been there anyway. Not a terrorist or antigovernemnt? Ya have NOTHING to worry about. Or even better, you spend all your tiem worrying abou this, and I'll worry about what I am going to have for dinner. Would you also like to worry about my declining 401K too? Hows about what color I should pait my bedroom? Go ahead if ya like.

See the reason I am not all up in arms about this is not because I dont care, Its just that with a degree in political science I UNDERSTAND how our government works. 1) the likelyhood of this passing is marginal. I dont get emotional over marginal $hit. If so, Id be worked up over my chances of marginally getting laid this weekend. I also am not worked up over the chances of the sweet tea law passing in Georgia, either.

Secondly, again, understanding how our governement works, even if it did pass, it would so be completely challenged by a watchdog group liek the ACLU. It would work its way through the constitututionally provided channles of the court system and ultimately, if not stuch down before, be reviewed by the supreme court. And as any court watcher would agree, the curerent court, while conservative has generally been a protector of civil liberties,and not known for erioding them.

this will all work out, and most importanly, you'll prolly see the sun come up tomorrow morning, which is more than 25 of our service men can now say, who died defending our right to have this argument...

[chopper816]

do you people ever stop bitching and moaning about the current administration? yeah, the patriot act has some flaws, but so do all other bills passed by congress!!!!!!! look at the speed in which it was passed, of course there are things to iron out and that will probably happen in court. this bill is to make us safe, and thats whats important. i work at a financial institution, and in my training, i had to study the financial aspects of the patriot act, and maybe if you would take a second out of criticizing everything youd see that this bill made it a bitch for terrorists and those suspected of it to obtain money and its a lot easier to be able to trace funds that are in sucpicion.

on another note, cloud9, i see you like to bash conservatives and legislation proposed by them. can you say anything good about them, the legislation, or do you think liberals are 100 % rights all the time? i want a straight up answer and not some bs that ends up side stepping the question. all you seem to do on here is spout hate towards our nations leaders.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by lifesaver
Was I the only one to notice the following? (Dinos mention of 9/11 got me thinking)

Yeah, I'll say it, I was LESS THAN PLEASED to see what, 100,000 NYC liberals marching against the war on Terror 2 weekends ago in that STARTED IN THEIR DAMN BACKYARD. Ungratefuls. 9/11 $hit didnt happen in Houston, LA or Seattle, yet its OUR kids going off to war to eliminate saddam. Some of you might say "this war isnt about terror, its about oil." I am sure our govmt has proof of the WMD Iraq has and secondly, Do you really think we'd even be fighting this war if 9/11 had never happened? Not only no, but hell no. we have now been prompted to clean up SOB's whos actions in their own country deliberately threaten ours. Its that simple.

Secondly for the Patriot act I, II or whatever, dood, my momma always taught me, keep your damned nose clean and you have nothing to worry about. Example: Got an MIP at a party, well ya probably shouldnt have been there anyway. Not a terrorist or antigovernemnt? Ya have NOTHING to worry about. Or even better, you spend all your tiem worrying abou this, and I'll worry about what I am going to have for dinner. Would you also like to worry about my declining 401K too? Hows about what color I should pait my bedroom? Go ahead if ya like.

See the reason I am not all up in arms about this is not because I dont care, Its just that with a degree in political science I UNDERSTAND how our government works. 1) the likelyhood of this passing is marginal. I dont get emotional over marginal $hit. If so, Id be worked up over my chances of marginally getting laid this weekend. I also am not worked up over the chances of the sweet tea law passing in Georgia, either.

Secondly, again, understanding how our governement works, even if it did pass, it would so be completely challenged by a watchdog group liek the ACLU. It would work its way through the constitututionally provided channles of the court system and ultimately, if not stuch down before, be reviewed by the supreme court. And as any court watcher would agree, the curerent court, while conservative has generally been a protector of civil liberties,and not known for erioding them.

this will all work out, and most importanly, you'll prolly see the sun come up tomorrow morning, which is more than 25 of our service men can now say, who died defending our right to have this argument...

100,000 NYC liberals protest a war that is perceived as unjust. Many Americans and people around the world are protesting this war.

What does that have to do with being grateful or ungrateful?
Ungrateful for what?

What does OUR kids going off to war to eliminate saddam mean? There are plenty of New Yorkers in the military.

Lifesaver, why are you being so hostile regarding New Yorkers? I really don't get it. September 11th was an attack on the United States of American, not just New York City. Remember the Pentagon and Pennsylvania? It was attempt to undermind the American way of life, the American ecomony, and the American government.