Random question about pin collectors

[M&M]

After reading some of the threads on GC about pin collecting, I did a few searches on e-bay for fraternity and sorority pins. I happen to think that all of the GLO's have beautiful pins, but what I noticed on e-bay is that pins from certain GLO's seem to sell for much more than others.

So my question is Why??? I've seen Kappa pins sell for $900 or $1000 or more (one in fact just sold today for something like $990), but I've seen equally beautiful pins from other fraternities and sororities sell for significantly less. So why are pins from some GLO's considered more collectable or "more valuable" than others??? I don't get it.

[CarolinaCutie]

I remember reading a thread here about Keepers of the Key, an organization started by a Kappa to save their pins from being sold to collectors. That is just one example of why that particular Kappa pin was so high.

[sororitygirl2]

Take economics...

Supply and demand.

[CutiePie2000]

Where's that dude, wwtp or whatever his name was?
He should know the answer.

[a CA in CA]

The "value" is strictly in the individual collector's perception. And conversely how strong of a grass-roots network exists bidding against the collectors. For example, there is one collector who shall we say is a "man with very deep pockets" who will stop at nothing to be the highest bidder on badges of certain NPC organizations. If there weren't people like that out there competing against the GLO members who's hearts break everytime a non-member takes posession of what is nothing more to them than another piece of jewelry, then the prices would not go so high.

Yeah, every one of those collectors would love to slam me for being mushy about it too, but unless you're on this side, you just don't get it. And that's too bad.

[Optimist Prime]

I have an idea. WE should start a group/trust fund to raise money and save all our pins/badges/etc. from these people, and then hand over said pin to that particular orginisation. Who's with me?

[wptw]

"a CA in CA", seems you're new to this debate. We collectors ARE fraternity and sorority members, so we don't generally fault you for getting mushy over the subject. We get mushy about it too. No, mushy is no problem. We only fault people who get irrational, profane and violent!

As "sororitygirl2" said, it comes down to simple supply and demand: How common the pin is, how many people want it, and how far those people are willing to go to get it.

If it’s a Pi Phi or Alpha Phi pin, you’ve got a guy with really deep pockets to contend with. If it’s a Kappa key, you’re battling boatloads of people who’ve read in the NYTimes how Kappa keys can magically make you rich. If it’s a rare 1800s pin, you’ve got collectors who recognize this fact and will go to greater lengths to get something relatively unique.

Many a dealer has tried unsuccessfully to cash in on the current “fraternity and sorority pin ebay phenomenon”. They find a beautiful gold pin with beautiful little pearls on it and figure it’s their turn to get rich. So they buy it for $20, put it on ebay with a $50 price tag and wait for the gravy train to arrive. Trouble is, they’ve found a Beta Sigma Phi cooking sorority pin, and even though it’s a solid gold pin with real pearls, the value to the ebay community (collectors and members) is somewhere around $1.50 because there are roughly 48 gazillion of them out there. When I meet these people at antique shows, I suggest they simply scrap the pin, take their lumps and collect their $5. Some of them do. Some of them just keep parading around the same $2 pins wearing $50 price tags show after show after show.

The flipside is, smart collectors can often buy incredible pins from the 1800s for dirt cheap because they’re typically unjewelled and made from a small quantity of gold. So dealers assume they’re less valuable.

But dealers are getting smart, too. That’s why the price of Baird’s Manuals has skyrocketed. Demand for them suddenly shot up when dealers realized this book could help them buy and sell smarter. Supply and demand, once again.

But there does seem to be an ebay “baseline”, which I define as the average price you’d expect to see for a plain 10k gold version of most NIC/NPC initiates' badges from the 1940s to 1960s. That number has gradually increased from around $25 a few years ago to around $65 today. Obviously, bigger groups with more dead alumni generate more pins and tend to be toward the low end of the baseline range (SAE, Sigma Chi, ATO, DZ, Tri-Delt, etc.) and smaller groups with a smaller supply of badges tend to be more valuable (Delta Phi, Delta Psi, Kappa Alpha order).

In general terms, things that generate more demand and therefore higher prices are: gold content, gem content, condition, age, date, character (ie. social vs. professional vs. honorary), etc. That’s all fairly intuitive.

Hope that helps to answer the question.

And CutiePie2000, I'm hurt that you couldn't properly remember my name. After all we've been through together!

wptw

[shadokat]

Use this example: Chi Omega...they have like 250,000 initiates, which is 250,000 pins. D Phi E has about 50,000 initiates, and 50,000 pins. Obviously there's more Chi Omega pins out there

[squirrely girl]

not to continue or rekindle evil debates - but wptw's explanation was absolutely wonderful and very descriptive. kudos - cause some people really like to know this info.

there was an alpha gam badge on ebay awhile back that had our "honors of epsilon pi" attached. this honors meant a lot to the members and it's price jumped considerably - even though the seller thought it was an "iota chapter guard". ah well though.

marissa

[honeychile]

I've heard a rumor that someone at our Executive Office keeps Alpha Delta Pi pins off of ebay, but I have no verification.

On the same line, a sister of mine was going to pawn her pin, so I bought it off of her instead. Does anyone see anything wrong about me wearing it?

[wptw]

Thanks for the kind words, Marissa. I agree this is an excellent question because it looks at the issue empirically, without being muddied by a lot of emotion or ethical debates. For once, this thread has NOT turned into an “evil debate”. But to quote Jack Palance: “Day ain’t over yet”.

I had more to say about this last night, but didn’t have the time to finish. So…

To say “the ‘value’ is STRICTLY in the individual collector’s perception”, while partially true, implies that there are no rules whatsoever governing the demand for pins other than the whims of individuals. Like I said, this is partly true because certain collectors obviously favor some characteristics over others. Some collect only badges from their group and those groups that merged with theirs. Some collect only 19th century badges. Some collect only jeweled badges. Some just want one of each NIC/NPC. Some won’t buy a badge unless it has sufficient engravings to trace its age and origin. Some prefer only badges from Yale, or Wesleyan. Despite these individual preferences, there is always an underlying set of common criteria that defines the rarity of a badge in general terms for members and collectors alike. And these criteria have much more power to steer the market price of a particular badge than the simple preferences of one collector.

Likewise, to say “the ‘value’ is strictly in… how strong of a grassroots network exists bidding against the collectors” also misses the mark. I would argue the opposite: That the grassroots networks are now (for the most part) sufficiently organized and disciplined as to keep the bidding wars from escalating unnecessarily. Where these networks do not exist or are not sufficiently organized, individual members (many who are new to ebay and the badge phenomenon) are the ones who start pumping up the price with tens of bids. We’ve all seen this. Now, the collectors are certainly putting in high bids to get valuable pins. But you’ll rarely see them involved in a bidding frenzy unless it’s one of those “holy grail” pins. Collectors generally know the market value of a given pin, they know what they’re willing to pay for it and they make their bid. If they win it, great. If they don’t, they know another one will come along eventually. The vast majority of collectors NEVER, as Hootie said, “finish off their collections” until they either die or go bankrupt. The sheer number of groups, compounded with the number of design variations in each individual group’s badge over so many years makes collecting a never-ending project. It’s an evolution, a labor of love, not a scavenger hunt list.

Hootie also mentioned perhaps some organizations were doing a better job of keeping pins off ebay, and that this may be impacting the supply side. This seems really unlikely to me. Keeping pins from reaching the open market is such a monumentally difficult task when you consider the numbers involved. Honeychile seems to think there is someone who is magically blocking all ADPi pins from reaching ebay. A quick search over at the ‘bay verifies this is nothing more than wishful thinking. I personally don’t think any group will ever have more than marginal success on this front. But even if we assume this strategy is effective, it will be many years before we start to see any impact. National HQs are broadcasting the message, but for the most part it is the undergrads and younger alumni who are taking it to heart, not the older members who tend to worry more about their nest egg, their grandchildren and their prostate. I would wager that of the greeks who will die in the next quarter century, a very tiny fraction have made (or will ever make) provisions for their badges in their wills. And in 25 years, the badges that start showing up in the estate sales will be the goldfilled stuff from the 1980s and later. So no one will really want them anyway!

In simplest terms: The badge collecting topic is hot right now, so there is an artificially high level of demand. But it will die down again eventually and the prices will settle back down to a more reasonable level.

In the meantime, be smart. Don’t talk to reporters. Don’t pay ridiculous asking prices for average badges. Don’t educate potential competitors (who are likely trolling this board) by starting threads that discuss what the “honors of Epsilon Pi” are and why they’re incredibly rare and valuable. If you really want a nice badge from your group, skip ebay and try hunting in your neighborhood, networking with local dealers or getting to know a collector who might find you one or trade you one. I personally pass up badges all the time because they’re too expensive for me (but still cheaper than ebay prices), and on occasion I have picked these badges up for an acquaintance that is willing to pay that asking price. “Keepers of the Key” was able to work out a trade with me to retrieve one of their gorgeous old badges. There is yet another reason to realize that collectors are not your enemy.

wptw

[honeychile]

Originally posted by wptw
Honeychile seems to think there is someone who is magically blocking all ADPi pins from reaching ebay. A quick search over at the ‘bay verifies this is nothing more than wishful thinking.
In simplest terms: The badge collecting topic is hot right now, so there is an artificially high level of demand. But it will die down again eventually and the prices will settle back down to a more reasonable level.

wptw

FWIT, I was told that our EO makes a concerted effort to keep ADPi pins off the market. If I insinuated that there was a magical way of doing so, please forgive me.

That being said, the one time I saw & bought a fraternity not my own, I sent it to their national office.

honeychile

[Optimist Prime]

Even if someone makes an effort to stop ADPi pins, there is one on there now.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by Optimist Prime
Even if someone makes an effort to stop ADPi pins, there is one on there now.

Make that three!

Originally posted by wptw
Trouble is, they’ve found a Beta Phi Sigma cooking sorority pin

I really hate to be nit-picky about such a well written post, but I had to correct you on one thing.... (well, two)

first... it's actually Beta Sigma Phi...

and second....it's not a cooking sorority, LOL! There IS a often-produced cookbook that I believe is used as a fundraiser, but that's all! Please see <a href="http://www.betasigmaphi.org/index.shtm">this website</a> to learn about this non-collegiate social sorority

Like I said, sorry to be snarky! I think you made some excellent points!