Cleaning house = hazing ???

Betarulz! · #1 10-24-2002, 12:34 PM

Okay I took this from another thread and a post by the amazing Tom Earp

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom Earp

Pledges cleaning the house is hazing by Natioanl Standards! Sucks but TRUE!

I was talking in Ktsnake's thread about how a clean house is important, and I described that we have our pledges clean our house.

The way our system is set up is like this. Each pledge is given a duty, some are no doubt harder than others. They range from vacuuming the stairs and hallways to sorting mail to straightening the front yard (includes shoveling snow in winter) to cleaning the dining room (not the kitchen which is done by hashers) to cleaning our "breakfast nook/kitchenette" to cleaning the bathrooms (both men's and women's). Each duty usually takes no longer than 15 minutes to complete and they must be done everyday. An active member must then sign off on the duty sheet or the pledge will lose a point from their pledge program. We provide proper cleaning supplies so they aren't doing them with toothbrushes or anything like that. Usually after two weeks the duties are rotated so no one is stuck with the same duty during their pledge semester. For the really hard duties 2 pledges are assigned to it and those two guys will work out a system so that it gets done.

During second semester (b/c we don't take any spring pledges) the duties are permanently assigned. Starting with the highest roll number (ie the pledge who initiated first...#1 would be the highest) the guys are allowed to pick what there duty will be for the rest of the year. Fines are given out for each day the duty is not signed off on by a member of another pledge class.

I went a look at what the General Fraternity policies on Hazing were at the Beta website and nothing I read there seemed to say to me that this was hazing. However I was wondering what other GC'ers thoughts were.

The1calledTKE · #2 10-24-2002, 12:46 PM

Well pledges having to clean would be considered hazing no matter where you are. If any of them made it an issue on your campus I am sure your chapter would be in trouble. When it comes to brothers as long as ALL brothers share in the cleaning then its ok.

FuzzieAlum · #3 10-24-2002, 12:47 PM

The pledges don't live in the house ... why should they be the ones cleaning it? Cleaning duties should either be divided evenly among all brothers, or all those who live in the house.

I wouldn't say it's "hazing" unless, like you said, you were making them scrub the house with toothbrushes or anything, but it does strike me as odd. When there aren't any pledges, who cleans the house then? I think the brothers will be less likely to leave messes if they know that they, rather than someone else, will have to clean them up.

PenguinTrax · #4 10-24-2002, 12:55 PM

Anytime a pledge group is singled out for a particular duty that is not part of new member education, it's hazing. I agree with everyone else, either everyone cleans the house (brothers and pledges) or hire a service. By keeping the pledges segregated based on performance of menial duties, you do not build brotherhood, you build divisions between what's a brother and what is a pledge, and that creates self-perpetuating problems for the chapter. A pledge is the future of your chapter, you treat him/her with respect, and in turn, they will respect you and the chapter.

This is especially true if brothers purposely mess things up worse than they need to, just because they know the pledges will have to clean it up. That's just childish. Initiated members should be setting the example for the new members.

All for one, and one for all.

Optimist Prime · #5 10-24-2002, 12:56 PM

FuzzieAlum, because they are pledges, thats why. The only thing I would have an issue with is after I was iniated, and didn't live in the house, having some one still sign off that did my job would piss me off if I was brother.

AngelPhiSig · #6 10-24-2002, 01:10 PM

Pledges cleaning the house is definately hazing...

What we do is make a list of the sisters by ritual number and then make a list of the jobs from easy to more involved and give the oldest the easiest and hardest to the youngest. Everyone participates, and we do it once a semester, so usually all new members are in.

With general chores, all sisters living in the house have them.

Kevin · #7 10-24-2002, 01:41 PM

One thing I've learned here at GC is that hazing has no concrete definition. In fact it's VERY different from organization to organization.

I've read the SN policy and I'd assume it's probably similar for many other organizations. This particular activity would NOT be considered hazing. Provided that it does not interfere with studies, is not unusual, does not intentionally or unintentionally create situations in which the candidate would be made to feel uncomfortable.

Beta's scenario under SN policy would not be hazing either. However, if the brothers were to make a point of making a huge mess and then telling their pledges to clean it up that would be a pretty clear violation. Assuming none of that goes on and that it's a written part of their new member program and that there is proper oversight for abuses then I'd say he's on pretty firm footing.

Remember when you say something is "hazing" you should always say in what context... ie. for LXA (and I don't know this for a fact) hazing could occur any time you ask a new member to do something and actives aren't required to do it as well.

The definition varies from GLO to GLO to club and from state to state... Policies and definitions are even different depending on your school, IFC, PHC, etc.

The1calledTKE · #8 10-24-2002, 01:50 PM

Why don't anyone that has questions ask their nationals and say yes we make our pledges clean, is that ok? See what they say.

Kevin · #9 10-24-2002, 01:55 PM

Our risk management quiz made up by HQ that we give once a year actually uses the example of the candidate marshal rounding up the candidates for a weekend to do 'house improvements'. It says this is fine as long as it is not out of the ordinary, is a written part of the candidacy process, does not interfere with scholastics and does not occur at odd hours (paraphrased).

We actually ALL clean our current house... It's probably the cleanest on campus but it's still a crappy house (we have shag carpet).

The1calledTKE · #10 10-24-2002, 02:01 PM

I guess each org is different. I know we might get in trouble for something like that. But I think if any pledge went to the news ,no matter what GLO they were apart of, and said "I was forced to clean," the nationals of that org would have to do something about it.

EM1843 · #11 10-24-2002, 02:09 PM

I know with Lambda Chi that could, and probably would be considered hazing. Our system work by rotating brothers and associate member through all the jobs such as upstairs and downstairs bathrooms, commons, deck and such. AM's and new initates have them more often than say a brother who has been here for 3 years. Besides, brothers and AMs working together builds brotherhood. We often will also asign a specific brother as task if they made a huge mess. I think it works very well. And speaking of house duties I need to go check and see if I have any this week.

Betarulz! · #12 10-24-2002, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum
The pledges don't live in the house ... why should they be the ones cleaning it? Cleaning duties should either be divided evenly among all brothers, or all those who live in the house.

Because we have summer rush here at Nebraska, most of our pledges (20 of 25) actually do live in the house. Therefore they are making the mess as well. Further for the ones who live out it makes sure that they come over to the house nearly everyday (something we obsess about because 80% of the pledges do live in and thusly are around...we don't want to have those guys be left out).

I have to disagree with the fact that simply having pledges do stuff not asked of the brothers is hazing. If that was the case, then having weekly lore tests, song tests, and learning about the Men of Principle Initiative would be hazing. You might say that well brothers before them did this same thing, but the duty aspect of being a pledge is something that has been done by every pledge class in the house. What is being asked of our pledges is not creating an environment of "mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule." (taken from StopHazing.org).

I do realize that the definition of hazing varies from GLO to GLO, but I did check Lambda Chi's website to see there definition and it was nearly identicle to that of Beta's, b/c that was the first thing that I thought of...maybe it is different for members of other organizations.

I do understand the concern some of you have about the brothers purposefully making messes. This has happened but it is very rare...I've only seen it happen 3 times in the three semesters that I've been here. I know that by having duties to do, I began to take greater pride in the house b/c it was always clean, and people noticed. Plus the doing it daily meant that the house always stayed relatively clean so it was never too tough of a job. That pride is definetly somethign that has permeated everyone and that respect keeps the actions of members at higher standards...

LPIDelta · #13 10-24-2002, 02:45 PM

According to FIPG, the legal definition of hazing is as follows: Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks; quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution.

So regardless of whether your national policy specifically says house cleaning is hazing-- it is. Do you think they would choose to do it on their own if you weren't making them? Do you think it makes them feel equal or worthy to have to scrub toilets? And I hate to point this out, but according to the definition, "lore tests" and "song tests" can be categorized as hazing if it leads to embarrassment or degredation on the part of the New Member. What happens if they don't know something? That is the true test. So some groups stay away from those things completely.

I agree that just because an active member does something does not make it ok for New Members-- because I've seen alot of active members do stupid things.

Ultimately, if you have to ask, it probably is. And if its not something you would want to brag to your mom about or the President of your school-- you probably shouldn't 'make' them do it.

shadokat · #14 10-24-2002, 02:54 PM

It's hazing, for sure. And you can bet your national thinks so as well. Having someone "clean" a part of the house for you, instead of having those that actually live there and make the mess clean it, that's hazing. And losing points for not getting your job "approved", definitely hazing! This instance just seems so cut and dry to me. I can't imagine a national or international organization not thinking this was hazing.

Kevin · #15 10-24-2002, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heather17
According to FIPG, the legal definition of hazing is as follows: Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks; quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution.

So regardless of whether your national policy specifically says house cleaning is hazing-- it is.

That's word for word our national policy on hazing. I don't see in there where it forbids house cleaning. I don't think it's "morally degrading", it dousn't "create excessive fatigue", if it produces physical or mental discomfort then as I said before it's not being done in a fair way.

Recall that Beta's example says the duties are simply normal chores, not done to make them prove their worth but more to keep the house in good working order and to teach the new members the value of a clean house. I'd assume that if a brother makes a huge mess on his own he'd be personally responsible to clean it up himself.

We have a very specific list of items that must be done in each area when someone is assigned to a chore list. You'd have to have a very biased interpretation of that hazing policy in order to come to the conclusion that it is indeed hazing.

If a new member doesn't want to do it they could always just say so...