EURweb Q&A: FROM PRISONER TO PEACEMAKER: CARL UPCHURCH
by Cameron Turner from a Mignon Turner interview
(Sep. 26, 2002) Carl Upchurch was a bright and intelligent kid who didn’t like to fight. But the violence of his south Philadelphia neighborhood and the harsh treatment and negative role modeling at home conspired to push into thug life. By the time he was a teenager, Carl Upchurch had a violent reputation on the block and his life quickly became a revolving door of jail and the streets.
But it was in prison that Upchurch found his salvation – first through a tattered page of a book of Shakespeare and, later, through the encouragement of a white college professor who recognized the intelligence and character obscured by Upchurch’s criminal lifestyle. Carl Upchurch went on to become a nationally-respected advocate for peace and inmate’s rights. His inspirational story was first told in the autobiography, “Convicted In The Womb.” This weekend (Sunday, September 29 at 8:00 p.m. ET/Pt) that story will blossom on the small screen in the outstanding Showtime Original Picture, “Conviction” (starring Omar Epps as Upchurch).
It’s amazing when we think of people like yourself or Charles Dutton (who portrays your father in the movie) or Tim Allen who were incarcerated but gained an enormous respect for life and enjoyment of life and are, now, actually giving back as positive citizens. But there must be so many other people are in the prison system languishing because their talent is not being recognized.
That’s frustrating! I’ve spent the last eight, nine years inside the penitentiaries and correctional facilities all over this country, everywhere I’m invited I go in and I speak. I speak on college campuses and other places for pay but I go into these places for no pay, except the realization that I may have the opportunity to have my message picked up by someone who is, as you say, languishing inside the penitentiary system. Routinely doing nothing when they have so many talents and so many gifts! You speak of Tim Allen and Charles Dutton. These flowers grew as a result of their own strength and their own initiative. Imagine what would happen if we cultivated what was there as human beings! The rewards would be more than we would ever expect! There are so many talented people – men and women – inside the penitentiary system.
Why is it that some people are able to use that time in prison as a respite and a rebirth? Why are so many other people unable to do that?
It’s kind of like taking a rock and sitting it on a flower. It doesn’t matter how big the rock is, some flowers will come out from under the rock irrespective of what you’ve done to it. We will have millions of flowers dead as a result of someone doing that, but there will be a percentage (that will survive) because of a life force that says, “We will continue to survive irrespective of what’s done to the human spirit.” If that’s what’s happening in spite of what’s being done, what would happen if we didn’t place rocks on ‘em in the first place? How much joy would we have to watch so many spirits resuscitated or resurrected or rehabilitated if we looked at this compassionately?
Do you feel there is a lack of resources being devoted to that?
I robbed a bank, for example. There are laws that say if you rob a bank, these are the consequences. I accept that and I knew it going in. So, I paid the price. But, where society is not being smart, where it’s not being astute, is I’m coming back out and society would be a bit wise to serve every element inside of me that would continue that behavior, as opposed to just keeping my body there (in prison) for 10 years. It’s not so much that you’re doing it for me, you’re doing it for society. The question is how can society be safer, not just how can you punish me. Punishing me was the easy part. Making society safer, that’s the part we haven’t addressed and that’s the part where we’re failing American citizens when we don’t address that.
I read somewhere that it costs $10 a day to educate a child and $1,000 to incarcerate a crminal. 
Absolutely! And some people don’t want to do either! They don’t want to pay $10 a day to educate some children in some classes. Then, whether they wan to or not, they have to spend the thousand dollars a day on the back end! You’re absolutely correct! When I can sit inside of a maximum security prison and watch Jerry Springer or the Price is Right all day, I’m suspicious that this society doesn’t really care about its citizens! The proof is that I’m here doing an interview with you, as opposed to being out front going through those Mercedes and things! That’s because somebody made a sacrifice in the prison and I think we can make it with a lot more people!
For you, who made that sacrifice?
For me it was Dr. Martha Carnamacher from the University of Pittsburgh who saw some talents in me and took her life’s energy to try to cultivate them. She saw that I could read and I could write and she thought I should go back to high school, and I did. She thought I should go to college and I did. She recognized that and she kept me focused and reminded me even though I came up in an environment that said I was less than, that I didn’t matter, that I was nothing and my self-esteem was low, she helped to cultivate my self-esteem because she knew that if she could get that up to a level that my talents would kick in by themselves. And she was correct! It’s been 20 years since I’ve been in that penitentiary system and I thank Martha! And I think the movie did a wonderful job, through Dana Delaney, of capturing Martha’s spirit!
That’s wonderful! But some people might look at this movie and say, “Just another case of Hollywood having a white person come and rescue a black person!”
Being someone who goes to the movies I’m cognizant of the fact that a movie won’t get shown unless a white person saves the day! (laughs) But I’m stuck with the fact that in my case that’s the way it was! Dr. Martha Carnamacher came to me at a time when I was not receptive to a person’s ideas about this society because I had come to the conclusion that this society was hell-bent on breaking black people to the point that they would not be able to stand up. I could never be a man unless I was destroying something. I could never be an individual unless I was being destructive and I could never be seen unless I was breaking somebody’s jaw! So, I was locked into the mentality – which, I think is another trick – that this society had no room for me and I wasn’t going to make any room for it! So, that’s where Dr. Carnamacher found me.
A lot of people believe that it is really up to the individual to decide what to make of this life. But there’s been great debate over that because you can have the best of intentions but not have the tools, not even know how to respond to a certain situation.
I lecture in the penitentiary that, in the end, it’s my choice. Yes, there can be roadblocks. In fact, racism sexism, material greed, economic injustice, all these things can be very devastating roadblocks for the individual. But, ultimately, it is my decision how I respond. Sometimes we make decisions based on economic solvency, where the mortgage is coming from, and we say we had no choice. Yes, we do have a choice! Sometimes we make a decision based on our timid spirits or our lack of courage. I have found out in all those instances that… I am strong enough inside of me to lift me out of any set of circumstances and, ultimately, to be a man! I can be a good husband irrespective of society, I can be a good father irrespective of society, I can be a good citizen, I can be my own person. I learned that lesson the hard way!
You mention being a good husband and father. What was your own upbringing like?
I had no guidance in that area. My father, who Charles Dutton plays brilliantly in the movie, got killed in the street when I was 14. He got beat up. A guy kicked his head on the curb and killed him.
How terrible…
I used to go down every day and see him in the bar because he never lived in the house. My mother never hugged or said I love you. Ever! She filled those dots in with some very harsh words. She talked to me as if she was talking to a spurned lover or something. She was a very cold and distant woman and I can tell why because she was messed around by guys who she thought liked her. And my father was one man who my mother really, really wanted. But he didn’t want her. He dropped two babies in her and then he’d hang out in the bar. He was the kind of guy, unfortunately for her, who a lot of women liked. He had that kind of personality. So, every time someone would see me laugh or something they would say how much I reminded them of my father and my mother lived with that long enough. She wasn’t going to see another one in her midst and I think I paid for that.
That’s terribly unfair for a parent to that on a child.
I didn’t have the type of mother who was loving and caring. But that could have been a blessing because my daughters never go to bed without knowing it. Maybe I overdo it. But, I don’t believe that’s a possibility!
NOTE: “Conviction” will debut on Sunday, September 29, 2002 at 8:00 p.m. ET/PT on Showtime. It will be followed by the documentary “Gangs: Escaping the Life” which tells the true story of five ex-bangers in L.A. trying to turn their lives around. “Conviction” will air again on Wednesday, October 2, at 8:00 p.m.
Conviction with Omar Epps
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