Freedom of Speech in the greekchat.com world

[kddani]

Freedom of speech doesn't necessarily apply to Greekchat in the way some members seem to think.

This board is owned by someone (John, i guess). It is their property. We are all guests. It is their privledge (because it's their property) to decide what is said and not said on their site and regulate it as they see fit, or delegate their agents to do so (the mods).

If this were your own personal board, you could say whatever you wanted... however it is not. If you want that absolute right to free speech, start your own board.

I encourage you to find out more about the first amendment, it's quite fascinating. I've taken an entire class in it, as well as many other constitution-based classes. It's very fascinating, but then again, I am going to law school so of course i'm going to be interested!

Americans many times seem to think that the freedoms outlined in the Bill of Rights are absolute. But they're not, there are restrictions. Seriously, do a little reading up on it, and you'll see. We have some great rights, but they're more specific than many people think.

I hope that this kind of helps show people why some threads get deleted, and that no one's trying to interfere with their rights to freedom of speech.

[NatalieCD]

As I sit here and think about this subject it makes me realize that maybe it isn't so much about freedom of speech. Maybe it's the website's/moderators choice to what they want to show their viewers and what not to show. I think a lot of people don't want to admit to the bad things that take place in greek life, but as a greek community I believe the only way that situations can be fixed is if we as GLO admit that it exist in the first place.

I do, however, understand all about the freedom of speech, but when is it ever so often that they have to remove threads because they are "Un-greek-like." that's what I would like to know?

This isn't a debate, I was just voicing my opinion like kddani has. I hope people can respect people's point of views, instead of bashing them. We are all greek life, just try to understand everybody regardless where you are in the world.

[lifesaver]

Editing for content happens everyday in journalism, and often we all accept what they say as fact... just a thought.

[James]

What wierd happening sponsored this post? Did I miss another meeting?


(James says the following in laughing and flirty manner)
I guess I should thank you kddani for a definitive analysis of the purpose of the Bill of Rights as applied to the ideal of Freedom of Speech in America, and more specifically how it is applied by the moderators and the site owner to the workings of Greekchat.com.

Now everyone should know why there are deletions of threads, posts and posters . . we should all consider ourselves: TOLD LOL.

I'm not going to go into my qualifications and background on First Amendment issues. How could I surpass the qualifications you listed?

Nor am I going to apply the First Amendment to GC business.

(James goes on a funny but more serious tone)

I will point out that historically the battle is fought between two sides:

People that want to restrict what you can say and how you can express yourself. They usually claim authority, or talk about decency and the majority. They believe Freedom of Speech could be dangerous or subversive.

And . . .

The people that might hate what you say but will defend your right to say it, because they believe that its a slippery slope to start limiting Freedom of Speech . . . They believe one days its an opinion you don't like being limited, the next its your opinion thats not in fashion.

So the question is: Which side are you on? Are you a limiter or a defender?

Sorry, this has nothing really to do with GC issues. . . but I couldn't resist.

PS. kddani I am not really picking on you, I just think the topic is funny and the way you expressed it was interesting . . .

[Dionysus]

This is not an issue of freedom of speech. It's about who says what.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by kddani
Freedom of speech doesn't necessarily apply to Greekchat in the way some members seem to think.

This board is owned by someone (John, i guess). It is their property. We are all guests. It is their privledge (because it's their property) to decide what is said and not said on their site and regulate it as they see fit, or delegate their agents to do so (the mods).

If this were your own personal board, you could say whatever you wanted... however it is not. If you want that absolute right to free speech, start your own board.

I encourage you to find out more about the first amendment, it's quite fascinating. I've taken an entire class in it, as well as many other constitution-based classes. It's very fascinating, but then again, I am going to law school so of course i'm going to be interested!

Americans many times seem to think that the freedoms outlined in the Bill of Rights are absolute. But they're not, there are restrictions. Seriously, do a little reading up on it, and you'll see. We have some great rights, but they're more specific than many people think.

I hope that this kind of helps show people why some threads get deleted, and that no one's trying to interfere with their rights to freedom of speech.

You know, Dionysus, you are absolutely right.

kddani, no matter how you dress it up and make it formal with language about the constitution, all it boils down to is WHO you offend.

I for one, do not care if I offend anyone. Nor do I care if my post is deleted because someone was too sensitive to read my perspective. I care that I said what I had to say. I don't get all up in arms about GC...frankly, in my opinion, whoever does needs a reality check. But please let's not live under the guise of the First Amendment, "Free Speech." Call a spade a spade, and that is that if you offend seasoned members of GC, you are out, plain and simple. Well actually not plain and simple, you get bashed very personally first for expressing an unpopular opinion, then you are out.

[lovelyivy84]

Originally posted by librasoul22


You know, Dionysus, you are absolutely right.

kddani, no matter how you dress it up and make it formal with language about the constitution, all it boils down to is WHO you offend.

I for one, do not care if I offend anyone. Nor do I care if my post is deleted because someone was too sensitive to read my perspective. I care that I said what I had to say. I don't get all up in arms about GC...frankly, in my opinion, whoever does needs a reality check. But please let's not live under the guise of the First Amendment, "Free Speech." Call a spade a spade, and that is that if you offend seasoned members of GC, you are out, plain and simple. Well actually not plain and simple, you get bashed very personally first for expressing an unpopular opinion, then you are out.

Sounds about right to me.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by librasoul22


You know, Dionysus, you are absolutely right.

kddani, no matter how you dress it up and make it formal with language about the constitution, all it boils down to is WHO you offend.

I for one, do not care if I offend anyone. Nor do I care if my post is deleted because someone was too sensitive to read my perspective. I care that I said what I had to say. I don't get all up in arms about GC...frankly, in my opinion, whoever does needs a reality check. But please let's not live under the guise of the First Amendment, "Free Speech." Call a spade a spade, and that is that if you offend seasoned members of GC, you are out, plain and simple. Well actually not plain and simple, you get bashed very personally first for expressing an unpopular opinion, then you are out.

I don't think most GC'ers see there being a problem with FREE SPEECH on GC. I would hope that everyone knows that for the most part you really can talk about anything on here.

However, Dionysus and Librasoul22 have stumbled upon somthing. I too have noticed that it is not necessarily WHAT the topic is about, but WHO gets caught up in it. For example, there was a forum thread(actually more than one) in which a certain GC're personally attacked a fellow member, calling this person everything under the sun, but a child of GOD! This thread was pages long full of these post and just left out there for everyone to see. I know for a fact that is was reported to that forum's moderators.

Then after this GC're was banned, fellow members started a thread about the forum's moderators and their discretion (or lack there of) and of course it was locked/deleted with a quickness.

Maybe there needs to more awareness for ALL members as to what roles moderators play within their respective forum. Maybe something similiar to the "Pearls of Wisdom" that the moderators of AKA have kindly posted within their forum. I believe having something like that could probably cut down on a lot confusion :confusion:, by letting the poster know....Hey, what flies in XYZ's forum might not fly here.

This is just IMHO

[Eupolis]

Originally posted by kddani
Freedom of speech doesn't necessarily apply to Greekchat in the way some members seem to think.

[...]

I encourage you to find out more about the first amendment, it's quite fascinating. I've taken an entire class in it, as well as many other constitution-based classes. It's very fascinating, but then again, I am going to law school so of course i'm going to be interested!

[...]

I'll add as a preface that I haven't seen whatever series of posts, removals, and protests triggered this thread.

I have mixed together here (1) a comment on the law and how it doesn't apply here and (2) a few thoughts on moderation.

The First Amendment applies only to the U.S. government and state governments (and subsidiaries like cities and state-run organizations). You have no First Amendment rights, under the U.S. Constitution or any other, on a privately run system such as this.

There is still a "free speech" issue, however, which is an ever-present social issue (in both private and public realms) about whether and when certain forms of speech or certain topics should be constrained, if ever. But the law does not protect speech in a private forum. The Constitution constrains only government action, and the free speech clause of the First Amendment controls only government regulation of speech. The First Amendment does not apply here. Owners of private forums -- like this one -- are legally free to regulate them as they see fit. We can only hope that they regulate them wisely.

I've only been around herefor a few weeks, but so far I've been satisfied with the judgments of the moderators. On the other hand, I don't get to see a lot of what gets moderated, so maybe I'm not in a position to say anything about whether it is done well or poorly. I would recommend, however, that people who have had trouble with the moderators' approaches do their utmost to raise potentially socially difficult issues in a carefully thought-out manner and as tactfully as possible. The way you choose to talk about a topic can go a long way. I think we need a place where we can talk about tricky issues, but we also need everyone who wants to participate to come to those tricky issues as carefully and thoughtfully as those issues deserve. No one should expect that this is an absolutely open forum for ranting (for example).

I think someone posting either above or below has asked whether the moderators could offer some guidelines, and that might help, too. People may feel better if they're offered ideas as to how they can express their thoughts consistently with the rules of the forum. In the end, though, there will always be a point where a moderator will have to make a judgment call that someone will disagree with. No one can make those decisions perfectly.

Consider also that the law requires GC moderators to act on some occasions. Suppose that a member of GC said something defamatory online about someone else. In most states, it is unlawful to say something defamatory about a private person (as opposed to a public figure, and there are restrictions then, too), and the only exception is if you can prove the defamatory statement's truth in court. While it's not a crime, one could get sued in civil court for it. If someone defamed someone else online here, and the person defamed were a private individual, it would arguably be the legal responsibility of the GC moderators to remove the defamatory post either on their own initiative or at least upon request, or the parent company of GC and others who saw the post and had the power to act but failed to could be sued and potentially found liable for defamation. (Traditionally, both the initial speaker and subsequent "publishers" of the statement can be held liable.) The First Amendment protects defamatory speech only if it is about public officials, public figures, or matters of public concern (or if the speaker can prove that the statement is true, often a heavy burden), and even then the protection is far from absolute. I offer this only by way of example.

Maybe I'm out of place saying anything about how people should use a board like this when I'm new here. I admit that I haven't been around here long. But I've participated in other boards that have faced issues in how they moderate posts, and other in-person and electronic forums dealing with controversies, and this is what I've learned. So, I ask that you treat this as coming from that perspective.

Good luck in law school, kddani! I just finished, and took the Colorado bar exam about a week ago. Feel free to PM me.

Oh, and by the way -- I am not a licensed attorney, and my legal ideas offered here are not professional legal opinions that apply to any particular facts. (Yes, I have to give this disclaimer to everyone I talk to about the law.)

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by librasoul22


**THE MOST IMPORTANT POST IN GREEKCHAT HISTORY**

Uhhhh, HUGE UPS TO THIS POST BY LibraSoul.

kddani - No offense, your post is a great reminder of what the legal issues are as pertinent to freedom of speech here . . .

But that's not the point. The point is, minority viewpoints, new posters, and etc are SHIT ON here on greekchat.com, usually for no other reason than being new or expressing an unpopular (or better yet, non-PC) viewpoint. "Free speech" doesn't mean "I want to yell fire in a crowded theatre" - it means I want to express myself against the grain, and still be treated like every other poster, in this case.

I think we're missing the trees for the forest.

[JayBEE!!]

I just got my post erased. So I had to bring to the general population when I know it doesn't even concern you guys. My post got waxed by the moderator. It seems that anybody can push a button on this guy and make him terminate somebody post. WTF. no matter how important it is to the author. So I have to start saving my work.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Dionysus
This is not an issue of freedom of speech. It's about who says what.

Here's the old DeltAlum broken record again...sorry.

In most cases I don't see a free speech issue as much as one of maturity.

First, I'm only aware of a very few people who have been "banished" in the time I've read GC. (Tau, the V's being the ones that come immediately to mind) I don't read every forum, so there may well be more.

But really, the reason that the members I'm aware of were thrown off had more to do with presentation than anything else. They used language for shock value. They resorted to name calling. They made outrageous comments and/or claims. They used threats. They tried to intimidate. They lied. They were purposfully rude. They were knowingly offensive to groups and specific individuals.

They were way beyond tasteless.

They acted like children.

Some almost certainly broke the law, as it was so well explained above by Eupolis. Thank you for that, by the way.

Most of them were warned, and chose to continue their transgressions.

I don't mind a good disagreement (providing there is some logic used in the argument), and I don't generally care what anyone believes (OK, we all have some hot buttons), but I take serious exception when someone plays stupid, childish games. Or, worse yet, is vindictive and/or predatory.

[Rudey]

I see your viewpoint but I'd like for you to see what others see. This is not in regards to banishment or whatever term you'd care to use.

Sometimes it goes beyond the old lack of maturity argument. There have definitely been many remarks by certain GC members who have been her for quite a while that make this place uninviting...more like they shit on you as RC says.

Want a blatant example? I had a discussion on here over a month ago that had been inactive almost a week. One certain member comes online to post something negative in regards to me and tell me that I'm new, as if that makes a difference. Even funnier than that was that she had almost the same amount of posts as I did and I have been here for quite a while. She mainly posts in her own sorority's forum.

Get real, systems also involve favoritism. That is how business works, that is how school works, that is how politics work, and it even trickles down into trivial GC. The people you call moderators are not moonlighting on GC while being supreme court justices full-time.

-Rudey
--Be careful, I bite

Originally posted by DeltAlum


Here's the old DeltAlum broken record again...sorry.

In most cases I don't see a free speech issue as much as one of maturity.

First, I'm only aware of a very few people who have been "banished" in the time I've read GC. (Tau, the V's being the ones that come immediately to mind) I don't read every forum, so there may well be more.

But really, the reason that the members I'm aware of were thrown off had more to do with presentation than anything else. They used language for shock value. They resorted to name calling. They made outrageous comments and/or claims. They used threats. They tried to intimidate. They lied. They were purposfully rude. They were knowingly offensive to groups and specific individuals.

They were way beyond tasteless.

They acted like children.

Some almost certainly broke the law, as it was so well explained above by Eupolis. Thank you for that, by the way.

Most of them were warned, and chose to continue their transgressions.

I don't mind a good disagreement (providing there is some logic used in the argument), and I don't generally care what anyone believes (OK, we all have some hot buttons), but I take serious exception when someone plays stupid, childish games. Or, worse yet, is vindictive and/or predatory.

[kddani]

The reason I chose to start this thread is because of some of the arguments that have been going on lately. And also because of the reaction of some GCers when threads have been deleted- just yelling "Freedom of Speech" and bitching about it instead of PMing the mods to ask why. I agree that there might be some other politics involved, and maybe guidelines from the mods would be helpful. But most the guidelines are outlined in the member agreement, I believe.

Everyone's been getting p!ssed at other people for expressing an opinion contrary to theirs (one example- sorority life). You have a right to disagree. But you don't have a right to disagree in a malicious manner, which i have seen on a few occasions.

I have a few more things to say, but I'll add them once i get to work.

Keep talking, I like seeing people's point of view on this!

Thanks for the thoughful responses and keeping it sane!

[justamom]

The content of several threads can be offensive to someone, somewhere in GC land. It's all about perspective. Some of the most fiery discussions have to do with issues that touch our lives everyday-
1. Prejudice
2. Abortion
3. Homosexuality
4. Sexual Freedom

These are some of the more recent ones. I recall very few people that agree with each other across the board on ALL these issues.
The threads are healthy outlets for emotions and viable ways of gaining insight into opposing views, until TOLERANCE and TASTE disintegrate. That's when it turns ugly, and the mud slinging begins. This is where DELT ALUM'S statement of MATURITY comes in. There seems to be a need to have the LAST WORD when actually, we all need to find a graceful way of ending the discussion or allowing it to carry on without our input.

I too agree some subjects carry greater import with the moderators than others, and sometimes EVERYone who makes a "stinky" post is assumed to be a "V". (Heck I wouldn't recognize a "V" if one bit me in the arse.) It's the CONTENT of their post that sounds the alarm.

I do know that one of the greatest insults you can throw at a person is to imply that their thoughts, their feelings are RIDICULOUS. Once the first stone is thrown all out battles occur and GC gets down right nasty. Sides ARE chosen and the flow dries up. Can we monitor ourselves? Can we EVER be convinced that WE WERE WRONG? Doubtful.