Rankings? Part 2

hoosier · #1 07-19-2002, 06:04 PM

Bolingbaker said it exactly right:

"It's wrong to think that a good fraternity chooses between quantity and quality. On a campus with large chapters, there's no such thing a a small fraternity that's perceived as competitive."

The biggest chapter is usually the top ranked chapter.

The small, quality chapter exists only in mythology and small people's minds.

This is a non-gender statement, applying to fratenities and sororities.

Pi Kapp 142 · #2 07-19-2002, 06:10 PM

I agree. My argument to the people that argue that there should be more quality over quantity is, "Why can't there be a quantity of quality?". When it comes to programming and executing events it is always a percentage of people involved actually doing that. If you have the same percentage of peole working really hard to get events going, but it is a percent of 100 people as opposed to a percent of 40 people, then you will have that many more working for a great chapter.

Dionysus · #3 07-19-2002, 06:21 PM

Exactly. I've always believed that there is quality WITHIN quantity. The more of something you have the greater chances you have in finding something good. Yeah yeah, I know, you'll also have greater chances in finding something bad. But, I believe the risk is worth it.

FuzzieAlum · #4 07-19-2002, 06:50 PM

I would like to point out, though, that achieving quantity alone does not mean quality. A chapter can consistently be the biggest on campus and yet win no laurels for academics, athletics, or inter-Greek competitions, and produce no campus leaders. I've seen it happen. (I'm not suggesting that anyone was saying quantity is enough - just pointing this out, perhaps unnecessarily).

Generally, when I have heard a chapter claim, "smaller is better," they mean that their sister/brotherhood is "more real." I'm not sure how anyone can really make that claim unless they have been in both a large and a small chapter (they transferred?).

TKEmz894 · #5 07-20-2002, 12:20 AM

Not my chapter, we are the biggest and the best we won 2/3s of the awards at our Greek Banquet.....Greek God, IFC Athelete, IFC man of the year, Spirit Award, Sports, Leadership, and Greek Week.....and without our size we wouldnt have the man power to compete......Sigma Nu tried the quality BS there and now they are coming to us for help in saving their chapter of 6 guys........We will help, but that quality stuff doesnt work, their is a point to take it to, dont take any wing nut off the street, but trying the whole quality thing is BS, you take everyone who seems to be allright and cut the ones who turn out to be Tools, but size solves everything...........

Betarulz! · #6 07-20-2002, 12:40 AM

I agree that you can be the biggest and the best, but I don't feel that the two must go hand in hand, or be mutually exclusive of each other. BoilingBaker is exactly right that on a campus with large chapters, no one percieves the small ones as competition...though they can sneak up on you, and occasionally pass you by (Example: My chapter went through reorg in 1996 - dropped from 86 to 13 members, and 7 years later won grades both semesters [Fall 3.443 and Spring 3.510] , won homecoming, Anchor Splash, and our numbers are back up to where they once were at 83 brothers strong.)

I think however if you recruit quality, you naturally limit the number of PNM's you are going to look at. If you say that we only want PNM's with at least 26 on their ACT's, a 3.5 HS GPA, and involvement in 6 things (or whatever your chapter decides for a definition of quality: looks/grades/involvement/partying/religion/etc.) then automatically there are going to be rushees who don't measure up. Put those definitions of quality so high and you may only have 1 or 5 or 10 rushees that have the right stuff. Obviously this limits the quanity.

The key is to find the proper balance. And keep in mind that not all chapters are striving for the same thing, nor are all rushees trying to be in "that" house. That I think is one of the best things about the greek system: you can find a house that fits you, no matter what your criteria are.

#7 07-20-2002, 02:00 AM

I think the quality vs. quantity issue comes fromt he fact various chapters in organizations get closed down just because they dont have numbers like another chapter in their org does, yet they have just as strong of a sister/brotherhood. And many don't agree with this. Some would say (and Ill use my org, just as an example) that you can't expect Alpha Gam at ohhh lets say, SUNY Cortland (we dont have a chapter there and its a small school) to get the numbers that the Alpha Gam chapters at Auburn or Bama get. Why yank Cortland for having 13 sisters and a great sisterhood, because the dont have the 250 that Bama does? I also see this argument going because I have known many girls from larger chapters that complained about knowing all of their sisters. My one friend when she was a soph in XYZ told me she barely knew the juniors in her house and had no clue who the seniors were at all. The argument seems to be that with a quality chapter that's small, you'd know everyone and that makes a stronger sisterhood. But as Fuzzie Alum said, you can't say that unless you've been in both a small and larger chapter. Personally, I'd rather see quality rather then quanity, but I also don't mind having 100+ sisters either. Either way in all honestly, you have a bond cuz your all brothers and/or sisters, but your not going to like or get along with all of them.
I will say though at UM, there were plenty of small chapters were ahead and beat many big ones. So depending on your campus, sometimes quality can beat quantity

hoosier · #8 07-20-2002, 01:16 PM

Sure, a small chapter might include several "great" members that every other chapter would want, but smallness limits everything: money, manpower, widespread involvement, and "power, prestige, and prominence."

The 25-person chapter can't have people in "everything", spreading the word about their chapter, while the 100-person chapter can have people in almost everything. It creates synergy, which is the ability of a chapter with several people active in a specific campus-wide activity (say the Homecoming planning committee) to get one member as chairman or major committe head, and that member can funnel lessor jobs (asst. chr., etc.) to his chapter buddies.

The small quality chapter (existing mostly in mythology) may win a few things (usually the "highest percentage contributing to the blood drive"), but the large chapter will wins lots, and attract even more members - the wonderful quality and quantity.

Never, long term, will a small chapter enjoy "power, prominence, and prestige."

justamom · #9 07-20-2002, 03:11 PM

well, all I can say is-----------------------------

*HEIL HELLER"

Just Joking, now don't get mad!

TKEmz894 · #10 07-20-2002, 04:47 PM

Thanks for the compliment Baker, I find that on this sight you have three kinds of people.
1. People in touch with reality within the Greek system. ie Us and Conard.
2. People who love their orgs and just want to say how they are better than everyone....Not gonna name them.
3. People who are either out of touch with reality, or dont want to bring the skeletons out of their org, or greek systems closet. It would be good if they would tell the truth about what goes on, so maybe they can improve their sitution....But thats not likely to happen, they will just keep their heads in the sand......

All of the chapters in the system could use a little more guidence from their respective Alums, and real chapter advisors....We cant even get our chapter advisor to attend our meetings.....But we have a strong Alumni system, and a lot of guys includng me in our chapter that have been in the Greek system at one place or another since 96. So we kind of keep our guys in check and steer them into venting their energy into positive things........Thats why we are the strongest on our campus, that and #s, sheer man power, we are playing cards with everyone else, we have deck of over fifty, Pkt has 35, KA 25, theta xi 15, sigma nu has six and have to fold next hand, so the odds are in our favor, plus fifty guys recruiting will get you a lot more men than 35, and we have a bnch of trump cards our Alumni system........Blaise

33girl · #11 07-20-2002, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hoosier
The 25-person chapter can't have people in "everything", spreading the word about their chapter, while the 100-person chapter can have people in almost everything. It creates synergy, which is the ability of a chapter with several people active in a specific campus-wide activity (say the Homecoming planning committee) to get one member as chairman or major committe head, and that member can funnel lessor jobs (asst. chr., etc.) to his chapter buddies.

Maybe I'm missing something, but who gives a shit?

I joined a sorority to make lifelong friendships and have fun...not to get on some campus committee or build up my resume.

Different strokes for different folks.

xp2k · #12 07-20-2002, 09:47 PM

I totally agree with Bolingbaker

I think this is a really interesting discussion and I'm glad that it came up.
I dont see anything wrong with ranking organizations. It lets you know where you stand and what you can approve or are successfully accomplishing. I wish I could look at these rankings. I bet the discoveries would be amusing for anyone to read.

I'm going to generalize here but I've always felt that chapters who say "quality over quantity" are really just hiding behind an excuse to not rush more aggressively. Or worse, hiding behind the fact that they cant recruit more members. There are some exceptions (NPHC organizations for example).

Keep in mind that quantity is relative to a campus's greek system's average size. Relatively small chapters (at IU, 30 would be very small) can be successfull at schools were small is the norm.

You're welcome to disagree...

XP2k

TKEmz894 · #13 07-20-2002, 09:56 PM

33girl Nasty language.......I like it.....But I think his point was not to join a stupid commitee but too be involved in your Farternity in a positive manner, that makes up for the times you get drunk, make an ass out of yourself, and pass out in your own vomit.....I do stupid shit all the time, but I am a respected member of my Fraternity because I also am VP of IFC, Historian for my chapter, and Alumni and housing chairman.....So basically I fulfill my obligation to keep up the good reputation of my Chapter, and get sloshed, and have a fun time with friends too......

PS they used to have a term for me when I got really shitty, they would say you are all knawed up like Blaise, cause my hands would clench up like I was handicapped.......

TxGirl · #14 07-21-2002, 12:26 PM

I'm posting this in both threads of this topic.

I think that everyone is missing somethng here. I think it is silly to think that a group doesn't know it's rank on it's own campus. If there are a large number of groups they at least know if they are on the top, middle or bottom of the group. It's also silly to think that the national oraganizations don't know this information also. As sororities we all have consultants of some form who visit chapters. Usually they visit chapters with problems - not the perfect ones. A national fraternity never wants to lose a chapter whether it be on a campus that has 2/3 groups or one that has 25 groups.

Someone was talking earlier about closing a small chapter. If they can sustain themselves and they WANT

TxGirl · #15 07-21-2002, 12:43 PM

I'm posting this in both threads of this topic.

I think that everyone is missing somethng here. I think it is silly to think that a group doesn't know it's rank on it's own campus. If there are a large number of groups they at least know if they are on the top, middle or bottom of the group. It's also silly to think that the national oraganizations don't know this information also. As sororities we all have consultants of some form who visit chapters. Usually they visit chapters with problems - not the perfect ones. A national fraternity never wants to lose a chapter whether it be on a campus that has 2/3 groups or one that has 25 groups.

Someone was talking earlier about closing a small chapter. If they can sustain themselves and they WANT to keep their chapter, then my organization will do whatever it takes to help them. Sometimes the women just don't want to fight the uphill battle anymore or they cannot afford to keep their house etc. and the chapter must close.

I know that chapters can be turned around. When I first became and advisor the chapter I work with returned with 35 women (total is 100), had the worst grades on campus and had huge financail problesm. At recruitment that year they pledged quota at bid match for the first time ever. In doing so they doubled their sisterhood. 9 years later (yes it has been a long and REALLY bumpy road) they are returning with the second largest amount of women for recruitment, received top honors on campus, were ranked 1st in the fall and 3rd in the spring for grades and are now financially sound.
Back to my original comment - the national fraternity knew that this chapter was in trouble and gave them the help they needed to get back on track. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. This information is not received from some super-secret newlsetter, it is sent in by the chapters in their reports to the fraternity. We try to see when it looks like a group is starting to slide and stop it before it snowballs.

You also have to think about regional popularity. Some sororities are seen as traditionally southern and do better in these areas than others. Where as others (mine included) are stronger northern sororities. No one group is going to be strong or weak on every campus that it is on.

If you really wanted a "rank" go by total (living) membership of each group - initated only please.

Of course as Justamom said, these should not be used by collegiates for picking a group. Ideally, they should choose their group for the sister/brotherhood found there - ha . . . if only it were a perfect world!

Just my two cents and something no one has brought up in this discussion.