The Alcohol Thing - again....

[Kapsig1]

All right guys. You have proven time and time again that we are capable of truly meaningful disucssion here. AS the result of a thread on the main boards, our Brother James posted the following:

<<Expell members that drink underage. Immediately. They are in violation of the Law and are the single greatest threat to in terms of liability.

If they are drinking underage and get hurt the lawsuit is much more likely to come.

I am not advocating this personally, but this is certainly the where the context of many of our conversations are taking us.

If you are a National Officer why wouldn't you be recomending the expulsion of a person that was in clear violation of the law (underage consumption of alcohol) and therefore a risk management liability to the National Fraternity?

Unless you (as National Officers) are condoning breaking the Law?>>

I for one certainly do not condone breaking the law, or the policies of the order for that matter. We are currently faced with rapidly rising insurance costs that will certainly have an impact on our Order. Honestly, the alcohol realted incidents are the single largest factor in these risign rates, and could EASILY drive the cost of membership out of reach of many undergraduates.

My question is simple. Wil James' suggestion make an impact? I realize James, that you were not advocating it, but rather making the statement that nothing else made sense.

So, there it is. Let's have some of the intelligent discussion we've had in the past.

Thanks,
Brad

[James]

You might want to define the parameters of what you are suggesting Brad.

For example, do you mean that at any time someone is seen by a Fraternity member to be drinking underage that person should go before the judicial board and be expelled? By the way, that is the only way for that to work.

Its like execution, for it to work as a deterrant you need to execute automatically for certain offenses.

Following this train of logic, you would also have to place chapter officers and chapter members at risk. Basicially, if they don't report someone underage drinking for expulsion, they would have to face that penalty themselves. Maybe institute an award system for people to turn their brothers in, otherwise people will only turn on the less popular brother.

Doing the above would probably result in both a sharp decrease in overall numbers as well as a shift in the population base that you are drawing from. The Fraternity would probably lose a lot of the mainstream students and start picking up more of the students that would normally opt for Circle-K and Christian Groups.

Another easy solution would be to forbid membership to those under 21.

But anyway, we would need more information on where you are headed Brad, for us to provide more constructive opinions.

Semper

James

[Kapsig1]

Originally posted by James
You might want to define the parameters of what you are suggesting Brad.

For example, do you mean that at any time someone is seen by a Fraternity member to be drinking underage that person should go before the judicial board and be expelled? By the way, that is the only way for that to work.

Its like execution, for it to work as a deterrant you need to execute automatically for certain offenses.

Following this train of logic, you would also have to place chapter officers and chapter members at risk. Basicially, if they don't report someone underage drinking for expulsion, they would have to face that penalty themselves. Maybe institute an award system for people to turn their brothers in, otherwise people will only turn on the less popular brother.

Doing the above would probably result in both a sharp decrease in overall numbers as well as a shift in the population base that you are drawing from. The Fraternity would probably lose a lot of the mainstream students and start picking up more of the students that would normally opt for Circle-K and Christian Groups.

Another easy solution would be to forbid membership to those under 21.

But anyway, we would need more information on where you are headed Brad, for us to provide more constructive opinions.

Semper

James

James, I'm not necessarily looking for the easy answer. I don't think there is one. I'm looking for a host of responses to save what I believe is one of the most important things in my life - Kappa Sigma. ANY potential solutions are welcome.

LET ME ADD SOME MEAT TO THIS DISCUSSION IN HOPES OF GETTING ALOT MORE INPUT: I was asked yesterday to chair an ad-hoc Risk Management committee to address this and related issues. It is a SMALL committee with equal representation from undergrads and alums. We are taked with creating a meaningful RM policy/process. Kappa Sigma has never had a Risk Management policy.

While we will be getting input from the 4 undergrads on the committee, I would like more representation in terms of WHAT WILL WORK. I am not greatly interested in the labor pains, there will be many.....I want the baby. PLEASE ask your brothers to join in the conversation. This IS time sensitive!

To answer James' question, our CBR does not allow for automatic expulsion, it can be pretty expeditious, but not automatic or immediate. It does allow for immediate suspension, pending further action as outlined in the CBR.

YOU TELL ME - what would have an impact. Here's the case:

Omega-Mu (sorry, couldn't resist) Chapter has held a mixer with the Kappas. Guests were limited, but it was a serious mixer. Because of university rules, alcohol could be BYOB or 3rd party vendor only. The chapter chose BYOB. The members had been encouraged, in Chapter Meeting, by the social chair to "bring extra beer" becuase the Kappas can't bring any due to national policies. The beers brought in my the chapter members were placed in coolers full of ice, and were served by a couple "sober patrol" members. They served anyone who asked for a beer that didn't "look trashed," including minors. No one got hurt, but a couple of the Kappa pledges, Omega-Mu pledges and Brothers (all underage) went back to the dorms and were confronted by a Resident Advisor as they stumbled thru the halls. When asked where they had been drinking, they told the RA "at the Kappa Sig house." The RA called the Greek Advisor, who called the pledges in, confirmed the story, and then called IMH to report that an investigation into underage drinking was underway. The DGM came in, confirmed the events happened as represented above, and reported it to the SEC.

NOW WHAT? No one was seriously injured, but risks exist. How do we take this situation (and the 40 like it that happen every year) and ensure it doesn't happen again? What discipline, who, how long, chapter consequences, educational, etc.

Help me. Please.

AEKDB
Brad

[James]

Brad,

Before I respond, what is the current policy the SEC follows for this type of violation?

[Kapsig1]

Originally posted by James
Brad,

Before I respond, what is the current policy the SEC follows for this type of violation?

There is no hard and fast policy regarding such violations. Thus, the ad hoc.

Brad

[KSigJim]

Hey bros this is parrothead( i lost my password). I go to a reletively small school, out in the middle of no where. We don not have a greek affairs person, the majority of the resident assistants, and the security guards, as long as there is no alcohol (beers, liquor) on the person on campus, are very lax. I dont know how it is a bigger schools, but limiting our member ship to those who can legaly drink, which remeber would only really be juniors and seniors, and would maybe raise the quality level of brothers, but at the same time decrease the numbers. Dont most people who pledge do so in their freshman year? So not only would we not be able to rush people who are under 21, but those who might have been interested might go somewhere else, where they can join, and probably drink. I feel that we should focus more on changing the laws to refect society, than change society to reflect the laws. Thats why we can amend the constitution, so that its not illegal to work on sunday, and so that women can vote, its just time to change this, teenagers grow up in high school now, they go to college and they canm buy cigarettes, which do more bodily harm than alcohol does. I feel that we schould expend the amount of energy used to get people to stop smoking as we do to not drink, and just start informing kids about alcohol. I mean look at foreign countrys, they dont have anymore alcohol related deaths than we do, but they live with it, from an early age, just like our society does with smoking. hope that all makes sense,
AEKDB--JIM

[Kapsig1]

Originally posted by KSigJim
Hey bros this is parrothead( i lost my password). I go to a reletively small school, out in the middle of no where. We don not have a greek affairs person, the majority of the resident assistants, and the security guards, as long as there is no alcohol (beers, liquor) on the person on campus, are very lax. I dont know how it is a bigger schools, but limiting our member ship to those who can legaly drink, which remeber would only really be juniors and seniors, and would maybe raise the quality level of brothers, but at the same time decrease the numbers. Dont most people who pledge do so in their freshman year? So not only would we not be able to rush people who are under 21, but those who might have been interested might go somewhere else, where they can join, and probably drink. I feel that we should focus more on changing the laws to refect society, than change society to reflect the laws. Thats why we can amend the constitution, so that its not illegal to work on sunday, and so that women can vote, its just time to change this, teenagers grow up in high school now, they go to college and they canm buy cigarettes, which do more bodily harm than alcohol does. I feel that we schould expend the amount of energy used to get people to stop smoking as we do to not drink, and just start informing kids about alcohol. I mean look at foreign countrys, they dont have anymore alcohol related deaths than we do, but they live with it, from an early age, just like our society does with smoking. hope that all makes sense,
AEKDB--JIM

Jim, thanks for your response. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I am in no way attempting to suggest that we only pledge those of legal drinking age. Rather, I am suggesting that we make we increase the penalty for no following the "no underage drinking" policy of the fraternity.

That said, there are many campuses I don't know well. It sounds like yours is a place that many of our undergrads would prefer to be (easy to drink with minimum hassles), but I assure you, this is a notable exception. However; this in no way changes the liability issue for your chapter if somone is injured of killed. Which brings us back to the original question:

How can we stop the violations of the law/alcohol policy?

Brad

PS - Jim I wholeheartedly agree on the smoking thing!

[KSigJim]

Oh, ok I got you now, ways to stop underage drinking? I dont know, I guess to me kicking someone out for drinking underage is a bit much. I guess the main reason for my thinking is that it would have to be all or nothing to achieve the desired effect. Which means that poor Johnny takes a sip of a beer when the wrong person is around and ends up not being a brother. I know that is in effect a loaded example, but it could happen, I guess I could see it as a way to deal with someone if they were constantly getting sloppy drunk and breaking stuff, for the better of the chapter, no matter if they were of age or not. But that still doesnt decrease the risk caused by young people breaking the law. I really dont know, this seems to be one of the age old questions, how do you reduce risk by doing the right thing, still attract young people? I really cant think of anything that would do it, and I would really hate to see people kicked out because of something like drinking, but at the same time I do feel something needs to be done to preserve the affordability of the fraternity.
AEKDB, JIM

[KSig RC]

Which policy is more likely to be embraced by those who do not follow the letter of the law:

Policy A
Those who do not follow the letter of local, national, and fraternal law will be subject to the harshest possible punishment. This may include any or all punishments the governing body chooses to implement; you will be expected to change current ways and comply immediately.

Policy B
Certainly one problem every chapter has had to deal with is "That Guy", the person who chooses to drink irresponsibly (if not illegally), gets out of control, and leads to problems for everyone involved. Here's an education program about the effects of alcohol, the liability involved, past history of alcohol violations for chapters nationwide and the results, some suggestions for having good events even sans alcohol, and help for when a brother becomes "That Guy" and how to prevent this whenever possible.

-----

I feel it's easy to see that chapters that are heavy into 'partying' as an organization are going to, for the most part, ignore policy A across the board. Studies have shown that penalties do not influence the decision-making process of whether or not to perform an action - just like in death penalty debates.

Policy B has a more realistic chance to make change - you'll never eliminate underage drinking, but in reality the fact that the law is being broken is NOT the portion of the issue that causes trouble. The heart of the problem is acting irresponsibly, specifically with regard to drinking.

If we can teach our brothers how to be more responsible with regard to alcohol use, then the war has been won - we'll never get people to follow a law which is largely ignored and only enforced in a spotty fashion.

I liken it to when hazing policies first went into effect for fraternities - by saying "NO MORE HAZING! OR ELSE!" fraternities made many chapters turn a deaf ear, and as such hazing is still an issue nationally. Rather than forming a sample pledge program, which would accomplish all of the goals that hazing achieves but in a safer, legal, more intelligent manner, organizations left that to the chapters - national offices only provided the enforcement. Better alternatives, intelligent rationale, follow-up and support must be the cornerstones of any fraternal policy matters, in my opinion.

[dreamboat82]

Hi i read your discussion and thought i may be able to offer you a way to limit your risks of having discipline action taken on your chapter from both your nationals and your school. I am a Phi Mu at LSU and we our under constant watch by Nationals and the school because of the stereotype that our greek system has earned in the past as a Party School.

Simply put we tell our new initiates that there is no underage drinking on Phi Mu time this includes our exchanges *aka.. mixers, swaps* which last from 9-11. Our members sign a policy which i assume is for insurance purposes where they commit to abide by these rules. We always explain the reason behind this contract which is that if something were to happen it would not just be the individual held liable for there actions but the entire chapter and since Phi Mu is bigger than just our singular chapter nationals will take the proper actions to assure Phi Mu Nationally will survive meaning we lose our chapter.

We have it set up where those who are viewed as abusing alchohol and are not viewed as a Phi Mu lady may be released on disciplinary action if the need arises. It is never easy when a girl is dismissed but it is done in the best interest of the chapter and the sorority as a whole.

I understand that you guys have to deal with hosting parties and most college students think alchohol makes the parties. However, from a girl's perspective it's nice to just be offered a soft drink with NOTHING mixed in it everynow and again.

Hope I offered a perspective that may help,
-Geaux Tigers- Val