Affirmative Action Decisions

enlightenment06 · #1 06-23-2003, 06:46 PM

What does everyone think of today's Supreme Court decisions?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/23/po...IRE-COURT.html

Professor · #2 06-23-2003, 08:37 PM

The decision is a victory for people of color! However, the expectation of retiring supreme court judges may very well present opportunities for many decisions that benefit minorities to be overturned. To that end, with next year's pending election, minorities need to show a unified front in the eletoral process regardless of party affiliations.

The Original Ape · #3 06-24-2003, 09:51 PM

I agree.

I think any celebration may be premature. I'm sure this happened with some hidden cost, and we'll see what those costs are in the near future.

Steeltrap · #4 06-25-2003, 10:53 AM

What we're going to have to do (and what we should have done, going back to the 1980s, IMO), is prepare our children and ourselves for the day when affirmative action will end. Some of the reports covering the decisions indicated that it probably won't go on forever. So, we need to make sure that educational and workplace excellence is hammered into them, including boosting standardized testing scores, such as the SAT. No, you can't legislate morality. But if we're routinely pulling 1200s or above, you can't keep us out of quality higher education institutions.

Professor · #5 06-25-2003, 11:07 AM

The issue of EEO and Affirmative Action provides an opportunity for people of color. As long as minorities are not the ones with the power there will continue to be a need for these programs. I suggest that some minorities have always had the grades for higher learning and the skills for the workplace but were not given the opportunity. These programs only open doors to allow us to show what we can do.

Steeltrap · #6 06-25-2003, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Professor
The issue of EEO and Affirmative Action provides an opportunity for people of color. As long as minorities are not the ones with the power there will continue to be a need for these programs. I suggest that some minorities have always had the grades for higher learning and the skills for the workplace but were not given the opportunity. These programs only open doors to allow us to show what we can do.

Very true. Once we get in the door, it's up to us to show what we can do. That does correlate with trying to raise educational levels.

REIKI · #7 06-25-2003, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steeltrap
What we're going to have to do (and what we should have done, going back to the 1980s, IMO), is prepare our children and ourselves for the day when affirmative action will end. Some of the reports covering the decisions indicated that it probably won't go on forever. So, we need to make sure that educational and workplace excellence is hammered into them, including boosting standardized testing scores, such as the SAT. No, you can't legislate morality. But if we're routinely pulling 1200s or above, you can't keep us out of quality higher education institutions.

I agree. I think the decision was fair. I think that far too often affirmative action has become a vehicle for unqualified people to obtain admission to colleges and universities or jobs. This only hurts us, it does not help us. I don't think the focus should be so much on affirmative action but on bettering the elementary and secondary education systems. In doing that, there will be a larger pool of qualified minorities who can utilize affirmative action to achieve equality within the workplace and in academia. . . not to fill quotas to show face. . . . thus defeating the purpose of affirmative action.

Professor · #8 06-25-2003, 04:10 PM

its just me but i'm not aware of unqualified minorities receiving admission to school or jobs. i am aware of qualified minorities that just were not admitted or hired because of his or her race.

REIKI · #9 06-25-2003, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Professor
its just me but i'm not aware of unqualified minorities receiving admission to school or jobs. i am aware of qualified minorities that just were not admitted or hired because of his or her race.

I will use myself as an example. Even though I attended a historically black college, I was very unprepared for the intellectual rigors of the undergraduate environment. Many people do well in high school, but upon entry into college realize that doing well in high school is not a reliable predictor of college success, especially if you attend an urban school that doesn’t have a curriculum that adequately prepares you for the intellectual rigors of college. I was accepted to other non-black universities including one in London, England. Knowing what I know now, after-the-fact, having struggled to maintain decent grades and subsequently graduating, I think that sometimes you can do a student more of a disservice by bolstering their portfolio through something like the point system, than by denying them admission altogether. I had good high school grades and a good SAT score, but don't think I would feel comfortable knowing that I just barely got into a school. . . because I was black. Something like the point system does not adequately fulfill the purpose of affirmative action because if I am truly qualified for admission, I don't need an admissions officer adding 20 points (or overlooking deficiencies) to get me admitted to fill a quota. Either I'm qualified, or I'm not. Therefore, instead of focusing on race, as I stated earlier, I think it would be more beneficial in the long run to focus on increasing the pool of qualified black applicants by making sure that elementary and secondary school programs are truly challenging. If I apply to the University of Michigan and earn just 10 points shy of the points required for admission then they see a box checked African American on my application and add 20 points. . . . how did I genuinely qualify for admission? There are admissions standards for a reason; the reason being that those that meet the pre-set qualifications of the university are likely to do the best academically while in attendance. How does that do me any justice to be admitted to a university where I am statistically likely to not do well based on the application materials I provided, but just got in barely because I am black? I really don't see how that is affirmative action, and apparently the court agrees. There are always exceptions though, as I have proven statistics to be wrong by not only graduating, but going on to graduate school. Unfortunately, that is not the case for many black students. Statistically, there is a high attrition rate among blacks period, I can only imagine what it is among those that barely qualified for admission. The more the focus is on filling quotas, the less it will be on quality. Affirmative action is not about quotas, it is about ensuring qualified people are not discriminated against.

Jamal5000 · #10 06-26-2003, 11:28 PM

Grace and Peace to you.

As I examine the decision about Affirmative Action, I raise an eyebrow at what Clarence Thomas wrote about in his dissenting briefs about affirmative action.

He quoted an 1865 speech by Frederick Douglass. In the speech, Douglass said that Americans always had been anxious about what to do with black people:

"I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us!

"If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are worm-eaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall!"

I do agree with this idea. It makes alot of sense.

What do you think?

Professor · #11 06-27-2003, 08:33 AM

In an effort to not misunderstad, frat will you clarify your position.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamal5000
Grace and Peace to you.

As I examine the decision about Affirmative Action, I raise an eyebrow at what Clarence Thomas wrote about in his dissenting briefs about affirmative action.

He quoted an 1865 speech by Frederick Douglass. In the speech, Douglass said that Americans always had been anxious about what to do with black people:

"I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us!

"If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are worm-eaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall!"

I do agree with this idea. It makes alot of sense.

What do you think?

Jamal5000 · #12 06-28-2003, 06:52 PM

Hi Professor,

It goes back to the idea of ensuring that the qualified (good apples) blacks receive admission to schools rather than the less qualified people passed off as qualified getting admitted.

From what I read, Thomas believes that Blacks should continue to work their way up without receiving any special treatment.

I agree with his idea because doing what he proposes puts a better light on aptly qualified Blacks getting into prestigious public schools on the whole. It would fan away the flames of criticism that face a lot of Blacks that get into U of TX, U of MI, U of CA schools and then do poorly (i.e. barely holding on to a 2.7 GPA).

On the other hand, I believe that his ideas might require too much of a drastic mind change when the resources (grade school systems) to motivate his ideas exist in state of disarray.

I hope this makes things clearer for you.

Steeltrap · #13 06-30-2003, 11:47 AM

I was looking at a rather florid article in the Los Angeles Times' opinion section by a crackpot named Abigail Thernstrom who teaches at Harvard. She was railing about the decisions. Most of it was unreadable, but she had a point: she said that educational improvement should start at the elementary grades. True, but I also don't believe this country has the money or the political will to do sweeping educational reform.

enlightenment06 · #14 06-30-2003, 01:27 PM

I think sweeping education reform, for the time being, should come from individuals or private groups instead of the government. Public education is nowhere near improving right now. I think groups such our organizations and wealthy individuals should put the time, money, and man/womanpower into educationing the young ones. For example, how how would it be if we had the NPHC Academy? It could be a private school for African-American youth that starts at the elementary level and goes to high school. We could even have our own private school system (cuz one school is not going to do it). I'm not sure how much money it would take achieve such a goal but there is no doubt in my mind that between our nine organizations we could get it done within ten years. We have the tools, we just need to do it.