San Francisco Chapter Houses?

[MrKSig]

Are there any Fraternities or Sororities from San Francisco that have a house? I'm a part of a new Chapter and one of our goals is to get some kind of housing (whether its a floor on our School's dorms or an actual place). However I've heard mishmash details about San Francisco and housing laws that I can't seem to find at all on the City website. The only thing that repeatedly shows up in Google searches as well is "Big Gay Fraternity House" which obviously isn't relavent.

Supposedly you are not allowed to have more than 6 men or women in one house? Is this true (I can't find evidence of this)? How do apartments get by that?

Any info or a point in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[knight_shadow]

Does your HQ have a housing corp? I'd think the first step would be getting them in the loop.

[MrKSig]

I'm sure they do. I mentioned it enpasse to our Alumni Advisor, but it didn't really get anywhere. I'll take a look at HQ and see who I need to contact. Thank you

[knight_shadow]

No problem. Good luck

[TSteven]

There are no laws against fraternity or sorority housing in the City and County of San Francisco.

As far as I know, there are no "official" fraternity or sorority houses at either San Francisco State or University of San Francisco. The main reasons being the cost to buy/rent, the cost to build, and the lack of availability land to build within San Francisco.

ETA: Also, no houses at the Academy of Art University. But I think you may already know that.

[lucgreek]

This is the negative of being from a chapter in the city. Unless your chapter was founded half a century ago or so, having a house is almost impossible. The cost of acquiring property for a house is massive. Why spend millions for one house in the city when you could build for cheaper at a chapter in the middle of nowhere? Unless the local alumni are willing to shell big money, it's likely never going to happen.

TKE had a house in Chicago, but the organization sold it after they left campus in the 90s. It is currently a parking lot. I believe SAE had a house at Loyola as well, but lost it when they originally left campus. ADG still has their Alpha house in Chicago, but they are currently not active (and there is no way the current Greek advisor would allow them to come back). I think one of the groups at IIT has a house, but I'm not 100% sure.

None of the current sororities at Loyola ever had housing. I know quite a few in recent years went to their national organizations, since sorority membership at Loyola has exploded and is very successful, and asked about getting housing. One group was told there was no way the national organization would spend the money to get housing in Chicago. Another group got laughed at when they brought up the idea to one of the national reps.

San Francisco has much higher housing costs, so I imagine the answer would be the same there.

Edit: If you're going to petition your school for a floor/wing of a residence hall, definitely contact your national organization. There will probably need to be guarantees that your chapter will be able to provide a certain number of people who must live there each year. If your campus has a lot of people who live off campus, this may not be feasible for your group. If your campus also has housing/space issues, it probably won't happen.

[modorney]

I would say the one thing you have going for you (and any national) is the huge number of alumni in the San Francisco Bay Area. My national (Acacia) has 500 local alumni, and Kappa Sig has probably many more. We have talked about having a "Purdue night", a "Wisconsin night", etc., where alums from those chapters are featured and honored, at a banquet for all brothers. If you could generate a monthly gathering for all KΣ alums, and have each month focus on a specific chapter that is well represented here, that would be a start.

Eventually, that could evolve into a "lodge", which could then become a (resident) house. Lots of work, but there are visionary KappaSigs here who could pull it off. This is the golden time to do it, lots of greeks who joined in the sixties (before greeklife declined in the seventies) are retiring, and are selling their big homes and moving to smaller places.

[lucgreek]

Originally Posted by modorney

I would say the one thing you have going for you (and any national) is the huge number of alumni in the San Francisco Bay Area. My national (Acacia) has 500 local alumni, and Kappa Sig has probably many more. We have talked about having a "Purdue night", a "Wisconsin night", etc., where alums from those chapters are featured and honored, at a banquet for all brothers. If you could generate a monthly gathering for all KΣ alums, and have each month focus on a specific chapter that is well represented here, that would be a start.

Eventually, that could evolve into a "lodge", which could then become a (resident) house. Lots of work, but there are visionary KappaSigs here who could pull it off. This is the golden time to do it, lots of greeks who joined in the sixties (before greeklife declined in the seventies) are retiring, and are selling their big homes and moving to smaller places.

While this is a good way to try and get local alumni involved, I'm not so sure how this would lead to housing or getting a house. The alumni might be selling big homes and moving to smaller places, but how many alumni live near the school? Having a house/lodge 10 miles away isn't exactly useful for your chapter. Those local alumni who are involved are also probably donating money to their 'home' chapters.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by lucgreek

TKE had a house in Chicago, but the organization sold it after they left campus in the 90s. It is currently a parking lot. I believe SAE had a house at Loyola as well, but lost it when they originally left campus. ADG still has their Alpha house in Chicago, but they are currently not active (and there is no way the current Greek advisor would allow them to come back).

Just out of curiosity, do you mean Loyola for TKE and ADG?

Part of me thinks now would be a great time to get housing at rock bottom prices! Seriously, a million near Loyola?

[lucgreek]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Just out of curiosity, do you mean Loyola for TKE and ADG?

Part of me thinks now would be a great time to get housing at rock bottom prices! Seriously, a million near Loyola?

Yep, Loyola.

Most buildings near Loyola are either apartments or multiple unit buildings (2 or 3 flats). Houses north of Loyola (East of Sheridan) are amazing and have been in families for generations. They refuse to sell them at all (and the houses are worth $$$). Houses west of campus are also pretty expensive. A group would need to put down over half a million just to acquire one property (but to really do it right, you'd want to buy two properties next to each other and create a bigger house). Then the property would need to be remodeled. The remodel would be expensive since the buildings are so old. You could try to build new, but that means you spent over half a million for a plot of land. Now you have to demo the property and build from scratch, costing quite a bit of $$$.

Let's not forget the permits and the block clubs in the area raising hell about a fraternity or sorority house existing, causing issues in the area and the alderman getting involved. It could turn very messy, very fast (especially since ADG hasn't exactly been a good neighbor).

For a group of 90+ sorority women to have one 2 or 3 flat that might house 6-12 women, it's not exactly that appealing (especially when a quarter of the chapter would be breaking fire codes by being in the building).

OR the group could use the half a million to buy cheap land at ISU or SIU and build a bigger, better house for your other group.

It's a very hard sell for groups to invest in housing in bigger cities. I can't even imagine the costs for getting a house in San Francisco.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by lucgreek

Yep, Loyola.

Most buildings near Loyola are either apartments or multiple unit buildings (2 or 3 flats). Houses north of Loyola (East of Sheridan) are amazing and have been in families for generations. They refuse to sell them at all (and the houses are worth $$$). Houses west of campus are also pretty expensive. A group would need to put down over half a million just to acquire one property (but to really do it right, you'd want to buy two properties next to each other and create a bigger house). Then the property would need to be remodeled. The remodel would be expensive since the buildings are so old. You could try to build new, but that means you spent over half a million for a plot of land. Now you have to demo the property and build from scratch, costing quite a bit of $$$.

Let's not forget the permits and the block clubs in the area raising hell about a fraternity or sorority house existing, causing issues in the area and the alderman getting involved. It could turn very messy, very fast (especially since ADG hasn't exactly been a good neighbor).

For a group of 90+ sorority women to have one 2 or 3 flat that might house 6-12 women, it's not exactly that appealing (especially when a quarter of the chapter would be breaking fire codes by being in the building).

OR the group could use the half a million to buy cheap land at ISU or SIU and build a bigger, better house for your other group.

It's a very hard sell for groups to invest in housing in bigger cities. I can't even imagine the costs for getting a house in San Francisco.

I was thinking more along the lines of lodge-style housing (which, admittedly, has its own set of challenges). A group could pick up a large single-family house right now for less than a million, and sleep 8-10. I don't know if there's any appeal in that, especially as they wouldn't have enough room for the whole chapter, but there are plenty of full buildings for sale right now.

Then again, at least in my day, most of the fraternities in the Chicago area just had unofficial houses that some guys would rent every year and pass down.

[NinjaPoodle]

Originally Posted by TSteven

ETA: Also, no houses at the Academy of Art University. But I think you may already know that.

Yup, sure do

MrKSig,
FYI, the former California Xi chapter of Sig Ep (SFSU) had a house right off of 19th Ave. Though they rented it, the property owner let them put their letters on the outside of the house.

SAE, California Sigma at USF, used to have a house on Fulton Street. The chapter is inactive also.

Phi Kappa Tau, Epsilon Theta (active) @ SFSU, had rented a house over on Monterey Blvd but that only last a couple of years.

Our own greek system, which is not really new, has a problem of being unstable. While I'm happy your chapter is active and doing well, AAU is notorious for losing clubs and greeks because the school has such a high turnover rate of students. I think getting a floor in one of the dorms is a great idea. I think it will keep people together and keep KSig visible. I say go for it and good luck!

[lucgreek]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I was thinking more along the lines of lodge-style housing (which, admittedly, has its own set of challenges). A group could pick up a large single-family house right now for less than a million, and sleep 8-10. I don't know if there's any appeal in that, especially as they wouldn't have enough room for the whole chapter, but there are plenty of full buildings for sale right now.

Then again, at least in my day, most of the fraternities in the Chicago area just had unofficial houses that some guys would rent every year and pass down.

Groups still pass down 'unofficial' houses, but it happens less now since the campus PD can come and bust your party (thereby getting your group in trouble, whereas 3-4 years ago, CPD would be the only one busting parties and they really never cared).

The push for housing has been more of a sorority thing, since sorority membership is very healthy. But, from what I've heard, the national organizations aren't willing to spend money on a property and weren't really entertaining the idea of buying anything. The NPC groups on campus now are all relatively new and don't have a big group of rich chapter alumni to help purchase a property ( AXO, PSS were founded in the early 90s, KKG was KBG pre-2006 and those alumni are burned bridges, ASA has been around since the '50s but I'm not sure the status of their alumni, and XO colonized last fall).

Then again, having a house that fits 8-10 girls out of a chapter of 90 is not really different than having a 2-flat filled with the same sorority.

[MrKSig]

@Modorney: This sounds like a great idea and something to look into! Thanks

@TSteven: I am aware of that. Which is why I am interested in trying to push for one haha

@lucgreek: Definitely a negative. I really want to have that "Greek Life" experience for my Chapter and a house is really important for that. I've found some 5 bedroom homes in the Daly City area (just outside of SF) that are approximately $500k. But yeah, housing prices here are through the roof.

@NinjaPoodle: Definitely something we're facing here. Being an art school, and the red tape that AAU has, its really hard to get things planned and organized. We have grown up a lot in the past 2 years and I'm glad to say we are finally on the right track to getting us in order. Finances is definitely a big problem, which is a symptom of our numbers. We need vigorous recruiting. We're a small Chapter with 19 "actives" but only say... 12-14 who show to things. This wouldn't be an issue if we had, say, 40 Brothers. AAU's turnover rate is huge too, so keeping people in is a challenge.

For housing, I was figuring our only options would be A) Get a floor in a dorm devoted to Greek Life, B) Buy a house which would be more like a "lodge" a little outside of Downtown or the city such as Daly City or Alameda, C) Rent a house and pass the lease down year to year (though this would need a co-signer), and D) Buying a small Plex with different units that can be converted to a House. Though that, I'm sure, is hella expensive.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and experiences on this, it is really helping me get some ideas rolling!

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by MrKSig

Are there any Fraternities or Sororities from San Francisco that have a house? I'm a part of a new Chapter and one of our goals is to get some kind of housing (whether its a floor on our School's dorms or an actual place). However I've heard mishmash details about San Francisco and housing laws that I can't seem to find at all on the City website. The only thing that repeatedly shows up in Google searches as well is "Big Gay Fraternity House" which obviously isn't relavent.

Supposedly you are not allowed to have more than 6 men or women in one house? Is this true (I can't find evidence of this)? How do apartments get by that?

Any info or a point in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

San Francisco has more than one code related to what you're asking. The Planning and Zoning code mentions different kinds of housing, and there is a mention of fraternity and sorority houses. Pretty much it is six or more people living together for more than a week, with or without meals cooked for them. Only certain zones allow certain kinds of housing based on type of dwelling. Secondly is the Housing section of the Building Code that defines what the minimum requirements are for housing, including when multiple people are there.

These two websites have a way to search the Code and you can also find people to contact. They aren't at City Hall, they are on Mission Street just south of South Van Ness.

http://www.sf-planning.org and http://www.sfdbi.org/

I'm not sure how you'd set up housing with your school since they separate freshman, under 21, and over 21 students. I ran the numbers for living a full calendar, not academic year, on campus to compare to getting a place off campus with your brothers. I selected all of the least expensive options (four people sharing a studio or a shared dorm), included the meal plan and the fee from the deposit to be replenished every semester, as well as summer and intersession housing. That amount is over $16,000 and doesn't include food for breaks and summer. I'd suggest moving off campus regardless to save money, and you wouldn't be sharing a studio or a dorm room and can cook your own meals. Even with a muni fast pass (excuse me, clipper card, WTF!) running over $800 a year for the one that also lets you ride BART in San Francisco, and paying utilities, I think moving off campus with your brothers or friends is a wise fiscal decision, especially if you or anyone else has student loans. With what anyone is paying campus housing y'all could find a flat in the city and still save money. There was an article about the housing a few years ago, if you're interested http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...carollloyd.DTL

Your best bets are likely The Mission, though the hipsters are trying to ruin it, Bernal Heights, parts of The Sunset (so many flats and illegal basement apartments, but you're competing with UC and SF State students for housing), outer Richmond, the Excelsior, Balboa Park, Silver Terrace, the Ingleside, and yes, even Bayview. If you go outside the City I'd suggest sticking near Caltrain and BART stations so no one has to drive. As long as you can get a street car or a bus to Montgomery station you can catch the student shuttle, right? Also if people go away for the summer you could sublet a room to another student as it would be cheaper than campus living.

Something like these is what I'm getting at:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/2350464006.html (rent is just over $600 a month per person)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/2354214314.html (rent is $533 per person)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/2354190981.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/2349634491.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/2347097452.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/2347089974.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/2349086577.html

Oh and if you and brothers do decide to rent together, you may not want to mention that fact because some landlords may have an issue for no reason.

And a final thought, what is going on with the Beta Xi house at Cal? I know Phi Kappa Psi is currently living there but if/when Kappa Sigma returns to Cal a good way to pay rent would be your chapter BARTing it across the bay. Allegedly they may be moving to Channing so definitely talk to someone about that house.